Why does Ysayle want to protect Nidhogg? (spoilers)

[Kaiser-Ace]

For one thing, technically the war against the dragons started with the Allagan's, whom are widely portrayed to be evil, for some reason. However, keep in mind it is stated that Midgardsormr and his brood came from the stars while the Allagans were already here on this planet. That's right. Midgardsormr and Bahamut, mostly Bahamut, basically invaded the planet and started carving out chunks of land for habitation. Yes, yes, what the allagans did with the dragons they captured is horrible, but I can hardly blame them for defending themselves against invaders.... least of all invaders from space.

Main problem with this is, technically Midgardsormr and The Seven Celestial Dragons came to Hydaelyn during the Divine Era so they were here before Allage or really anyone else. Remember the Allage Empire only came about during the 3rd Astral Era.

[Alleo]

@Februs: Well I only wrote my post because the person that I answered to, wanted to kill all people in Ishgard and put the whole blame onto them. I know that the dragons are not innocent either thats why I said that I liked how they did the story because in the end nobody was truly the one to blame completely. Both sides made and still makes mistakes but at the same time there are good beings on both side too.

I am not really sure if the Allagans were there before the dragons arrived ^^; I believe the dragons where there first. Midgardsormr also arrived with eggs so he was the only adult dragon at that moment and it seems that he had a mission from Hydaelyn herself (protecting that lake) so I would not really paint them as the enemies here. It took some time for his children to grow and for them to breed all those other dragons so they had to be on the planet for quite some time. And I am going to be truthful..even if the dragons somehow attacked them, it gave them no right to capture and torture the dragons like they did. Torturing someone is not defending yourself. And the Bahamut they captured was the primae that his wife summoned after he was killed. Even she was shocked how brutal and horrible that primae was so it seems that the true Bahamut was not like that. So maybe I have missed something or already forgot it but where exactly do they say that the dragons started it?

And after I got to Azys Lla my opinion about the one part of Allagans (since not everyone had to be like that) that did all of that got even worse..that place is really horrible..

Well after I saw that echo scene I really believed that they felt guilty for what they had done. I think they might have realized what this would mean for the peace they had with the dragon. And they did it out of pure greed..Since nearly all bad things in the story right now happened thanks to the Ascians I believe that they had their hand in this too..

Yes Nidhogg is clearly portrayed as a truly bad dragon. I felt bad for him at first, because he did lose his sister, but after I learned that he choses to torment Ishgard all those many many years every bit of sympathy was gone. And even if he orchestrated the whole thing from the start this makes him a bad dragon but not the whole race. Heck even Midgardsormr seems to be a little bit shocked about him.

On our journey we also met some really good dragons and at the same time really good people so no side is truly bad and I just dislike that some people paint any side as the evil one that has to be killed even though its just some bad apples that paint them that way..

[Walluh]

As far as I know the excuse for Nidhogg still being so angry is that 'dragons perceive time differently' so it seems like the betrayal is still recent..

Which...is one of the dumbest concepts I've ever heard, and makes absolutely no sense when applied to a sentient creature capable of plenty of thought, unless it's basically just a fancy way of saying dragons are extremely petty because they're immortal.

[Februs]

Main problem with this is, technically Midgardsormr and The Seven Celestial Dragons came to Hydaelyn during the Divine Era so they were here before Allage or really anyone else. Remember the Allage Empire only came about during the 3rd Astral Era.

True... True... However, just because the Celestial Dragons were flying around in space before the Allagans came into being, does not mean that they had settled on Eorzea before the Allagans. The Allagans basically evolved into the species they were on this planet. The Dragons came into being somewhere off in the Cosmos. I'm not sure that would give them the right to somehow claim ownership of all the planets just cuz they were ahead of the evolutionary curve.

Think of it this way. Imagine if this happened to our planet. I don't think the vast majority of humans would be okay with an alien species claiming ownership of a continent of land with their single justification being "well, we evolved first... so, dibs." Even if they were peaceful and just expected us to rearrange our countries for them, I'm pretty sure we'd take issue with it.

[Februs]

Snip.

For the most part I'm in total agreement with you. I was just pointing out that there are some serious gaps and some shady implications made in the story.

Also, I never said the Dragons attacked first (though I can see how my wording implied that). I only meant to point out that the Allagans were the natural residents of this world, and the Dragons were not. Assuming the Allagans had been settled before Middy made his cosmic journey to the planet with those eggs, it's not difficult to see how the Allagans might have taken issue with a brood of dragons descending from the sky and claiming a bunch of land for themselves. It is implied in the wording of the story that this is the way it happened, because Middy says that, after they came to the planet, Bahamut and his mate set off by themselves to settle some land. Middy wouldn't even have been involved in the first contact.

However, even if the wording is somehow ambiguous and the dragons did, in fact, arrive and settle before the Allagan's evolved (which is unlikely, since the dragons would have been there to witness the entire rise of the allagan species, let alone their empire, and would have been light-years ahead of them in terms of population growth and land ownership) we're still talking about a species that evolved naturally on this planet versus one that came from the stars. Hence, conflict.

None of this excuses the Allagan's mistreatment of the dragons they captured (don't care about the Bahamut copy, since he's not real and just a Primal), but the Allagan's are certainly more sympathetic than the story has made them out to be. After all, they would have been defending their homes against what seemed to be monstrously powerful creatures whose leader is just shy of being a Celestial God. In that kind of environment, it's not hard to see how their culture leaped to such methods of warfare. Science and War tend to lead to very efficient (though often cruel and heartless, in hindsight) methodologies.

[Kaiser-Ace]

snip

Midgardsormr was here when the Twelve were still on Hydaelyn though. Since the 12 left at the beginning of the 1st Umbra Era Allage would not exist for thousands of years. The point isn't that Dragons aren't descended from aliens (that's exactly what Middy is) but that they predate Allag by thousands upon thousands of.years.

Timeline (In a nut shell):
Divine Era (The 12 live and Middy arrives with 7 eggs) > 1st UE (Age of man starts, the 12 leave)>1AE>2UE>2AE>3UE>3AE(Allage Empire Forms)>4UE (Allag Falls)>4AE>5UE (Ice Age, Miqo'te Migrate to Eorzea from Miracidia)>5AE (War of the Magi)>6UE(Great Flood)>6AE (Dragonsong War starts, Ishguard Founded, Garlen Empired Formed, Ala Mihgo Conquered, Battle of Silver Tear Skies, Battle of Carteneau, Fall of Dalamud)>7UE (Operation Archon and Felling of Bahamut Prime)>7AE (Present Day)

[DoctaruRavenbe]

As far as I know the excuse for Nidhogg still being so angry is that 'dragons perceive time differently' so it seems like the betrayal is still recent..

Which...is one of the dumbest concepts I've ever heard, and makes absolutely no sense when applied to a sentient creature capable of plenty of thought, unless it's basically just a fancy way of saying dragons are extremely petty because they're immortal.

Its not so much that he's a dragon that perceives time differently. Its that he's a species with an incredibly long life span. Let's look at it this way: Summer as a 10 yr old vs Summer as 20 yr old? Which one felt longer? Now how would a 40 year old feel about Summer? keep upping the time and certain things become quicker, add in to it immortality (of a sorts a celestial dragon possesses) and years can become days or even hours. That's why its fresher on his mind. That and he's a psycho that wants them to suffer.

[Dalvy]

As far as I know the excuse for Nidhogg still being so angry is that 'dragons perceive time differently' so it seems like the betrayal is still recent..

Which...is one of the dumbest concepts I've ever heard, and makes absolutely no sense when applied to a sentient creature capable of plenty of thought, unless it's basically just a fancy way of saying dragons are extremely petty because they're immortal.

Look at Tiamat. She's moping about her husbando 5000years on. Even midgardsormr asks why she's still doing it... Which convinced me that Mid is the only dragon capable of letting things go.

[DoctaruRavenbe]

Look at Tiamat. She's moping about her husbando 5000years on. Even midgardsormr asks why she's still doing it... Which convinced me that Mid is the only dragon capable of letting things go.

And Hrasvaelgr is still pining over his girlfriend. These dragons are over 5000 years old. Whatever lifespan they could implicate that they may still be teenagers or in their mid 20s to 30s.

[Kaiser-Ace]

Its not so much that he's a dragon that perceives time differently. Its that he's a species with an incredibly long life span. Let's look at it this way: Summer as a 10 yr old vs Summer as 20 yr old? Which one felt longer? Now how would a 40 year old feel about Summer? keep upping the time and certain things become quicker, add in to it immortality (of a sorts a celestial dragon possesses) and years can become days or even hours. That's why its fresher on his mind. That and he's a psycho that wants them to suffer.

My personal issue with Nidhogg has always been his sadistic idea of revenge. His perception of time is the same as Tiamat's, Hrysvelgr's, and Middy's after all.

But interesting thing is, Shiva's Soul Restrains Hrysvelgr, Tiamat's Guilt Restrains her, and Middy's Convent Restrains him.

Seems that it's not like Nidhogg is the only one willing to kill all the mortals they find, but is the only one not being held back from it.