More Horizontal Progression please

[Nektulos-Tuor]

^

These WoW clone MMOs last what 2-3 years before going f2p and dying? So lets average that to 2.5 years (30 months) $15x30 = $450 + say 2 $50 expansion.. $550 per player who stick around start to end?

Now lets look at the games who have kept players around under a sub model for over 12-15 years EQ and XI. (well focus on EQ because without looking XI's content was a bit more complicated mixing expansions and smaller paid content patches)

EQ = original + 21 expansions.

per player
expansions value = over $1,000
sub value = $2,900

Does your average WoW clone bring in a huge influx the 1st couple months that likely make up for the difference? Sure but lets then realize the cost of developing a new MMO vs adding an expansion to an existing one.

Then lets realize that apparently EQ/Xi were good enough to keep a lot of the SAME people engaged for YEARS. Where even the titan of these modern MMOs WoW has a almost 70% attrition rate after the 1st 20 months of playing (since I know someone will bitch below are the numbers). WoW stays afloat by being the equivalent of cigarettes/beer/weed to the MMO world. Everyone tries it then goes looking for something better.

40% quit after a year which goes up to ~70% at 600 days (about 20 months)


http://netgames2008.cs.wpi.edu/slides/chen-wow.pdf (scroll down to the sub time graph)



.... after 8 years. I never played it myself but that is longer than most MMOs last these days. We could go through a very very long list of MMOs that actually failed before we ever even talk about SWG shutting down. And sustained a sub model.

Also since you either don't know or like to ignore important details. It failed AFTER being completely overhauled due to a disagreement within the business (as I understand without looking it up Lucas Arts and SOE had disagreement)

SWG couldn't afford getting a thing from Lucas Arts or Disney to remake the game. Lucas Arts also ordered SWG to "change" to be more like WOW. Which made it lose suddenly half its subscribers in the CU, then half again in the NGE.

SWG Pre-CU had a GOOD Player base for its time. It was at the time MMOs were NOT popular like they are now.

SWG literally was forced to be changed by Lucas. SWG wasn't shut down though because it was failing, Sony just wouldn't fork over the millions to fight with SWTOR.

SWG no longer had the "Rights" for Sony to have the game.
SWTOR paid to make it so SWG wouldn't have the rights to the game anymore so it would be the only Starwars MMO.

When they finally lost the rights, SWG started becoming an amazing game, even in the NGE. You could have full atmospheric flight! Full on atmospheric battles. So much more to do then SWTOR ever did. Way better of a game.

Anyways, that is all in the past now.

Side note, SWG was finally shut down because SWTOR was being released, and LA didn't want folks confused as to which one they were playing, so they refused to renew SOE's license.

Yep!


World of Warcraft loses almost 70% of its playerbase a month after an expansion. Then gains it all back after a new expansion. That is VERY bad.. FFXIV is the same way actually. So many people are just.. bored.

[Ibi]

World of Warcraft loses almost 70% of its playerbase a month after an expansion.

There's a drop off after an expansion, but let's try using real numbers when making a point instead of just making them up, shall we?

As you can see in this post, the largest drop off World of Warcraft has ever had from the peak after an expansion's release was for Warlords of Draenor (the current expansion).

That drop off was 39% in the first three months, and a further 15% (based on the peak) in the three months after that, for a total of 44% in six months, rather than 70% in a single month that you stated.

Burning Crusade and Wrath of the Lich King both increased their subscriber numbers over the duration of the expansion, Cataclysm had a -5% in the first 4.5 months, and -24% over the length of the expansion (with the last ten months of the expansion adding no new content) and Mists of Pandaria was -4% in the first three months, -32% at the lowest point of the expansion (with the last thirteen months of the expansion adding no new content).

[Iagainsti]

World of Warcraft loses almost 70% of its playerbase a month after an expansion. Then gains it all back after a new expansion. That is VERY bad.. FFXIV is the same way actually. So many people are just.. bored.

I'd like to point out that 86% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

I'd like to point out that 86% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

Yes they are. However, the problem is this.

Games these days are not made for long-term.

A large number of the playerbase joins, does the content then runs out of things to do, becomes bored and quits or does not play. That is BAD.

In older games.

Players still play, and play, and play, and play. They do not run out of content because content is designed to last longer and players make their own content.

[Iagainsti]

Yes they are. However, the problem is this.

#wayoveryourhead it seems. Back on point;

I made my point back on page 3, so no point expanding here, just as happy to log in, do my roulettes, some pvp, and work on my desynths/mining. The system of FFXIV vertical progression has been in place since the launch, and if you know how to work the system, it's easy to work around.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

#wayoveryourhead it seems. Back on point;

I made my point back on page 3, so no point expanding here, just as happy to log in, do my roulettes, some pvp, and work on my desynths/mining. The system of FFXIV vertical progression has been in place since the launch, and if you know how to work the system, it's easy to work around.

That is fine for you. I am happy you enjoy that.

On SWG.
- SWG had no levels when it first came out. So all content was relevant and often enough you needed to do the earlier dungeons to farm gear or components because the best component resources came from lower level dungeons and creatures.
- I explored the dynamic world for random tapes and upgrades. Farmed creatures for gear which I could reverse engineer for better gear.
- Farmed Schematics.
- Had 25 fully contested dynamic dungeons to do. No duty finder so you needed to make your own groups and interact with other players. You also needed to get buffs so you needed to visit a dancer/docter/musician and an officer later in the game's life.
- Had a full changing world to explore.
- The worlds are huge, running across them takes 2-3 hours if your walking.
- Make your own city, build anywhere on the world and place down houses, become a Mayor (actually a class!)
- Crafted Items and Crafted gear you could spend hours trying to experiment.
- PvP in the galactic civil war. This is nothing like pvp in the other games. You "opt-in" and PvP can happen anywhere in the world. Even in cities. The side which controls a city has "faction npcs" and they can go overt and declare themselves as pvp right in the city. However attacking players have to come in from other places to get overt. So defenders always have an advantage. Defenders also have NPCs in the city. PvP is not instanced and all Open World.


- PvP Ranks, which were real ranks. However they were not a really long grind like FFXIV. However if you do not pvp the ranks begin to go down until rank 0. However you only need ranks to buy the gear, not use it. So if you get high rank grinding it out quick you can get the gear you want then stop caring about ranks.
- Space PvP, you can declare your faction in space then fight other ships. SWG space PvP combat was some of the best space and ship combat i've seen in any game today.
- Completely randomized resources and item drops per server for hours of entertainment.
- Having to go around the world farming monsters "Monster Hunter" style to skin them because I was a scout and "Skins" were required to make armor. Bones were as well.
- Decorating and taking care of my house.
- Galactic Civil War: Go to any city every 2 hours there is an event in the world where a city is attacked by a faction. Factions that win control that city and if you perform and defend or attack the city you get special benefits.
- Going to space.
- Go do a Zombie Event on Dathomir which was a halloween event they added to the game but stayed in the game. It was a Mini-game in itself and turned the game into a zombie survival horror. For doing the event (WHICH WAS very hard .. not many people could do it.) you got a special Mini-Bike Swoop mount and appearance gear. It wasn't a "GRIND" The event is actually only 3 hours, it was just so hard only a few people could do it.
- Farming for randomized ship parts in space that were also random level.
- Reverse engineering the ship parts with a ship wright.?
- Asking for the latest ship upgrades.
- Since there was no duty finder: Helping people with quests.
- Roleplaying and building a city.
- Using the "Storymode" content to make my own stories, quests, events and rewards.
- Making missions other players could do for rewards.
- Player events people made with crafted rewards.
- Farming Death Watch Bunker for super rare Mandalorian Armor.
- Farming Blacksuns on Yavin IV for Rare Blacksun armor pieces.
- Hunting people across the Galaxy (Players, actually going in and going around killing other players) for bounties.

Social Classes and alts:
- Dancing on my alt for money, doing docter buffs on my alt for money
- Making and performing music on my alt to buff people for money.
- Image Designer (a class designed for customizing other players.) You customize and change players appearance for money. Like a plastic surgeon.

There was just.. SO MUCH TO DO. I can GO on for hours AND hours. That is why the game was so fun. It wasn't just a "game" it was a world.

I was not a crafter, but it had the best crafting system in any MMO to date.

SWG was a game designed where you needed multiple players to help you.

The PvP was well balanced for the most part but world changing. Imagine being able to play Garleans and going into "Ul'dah" and literally taking over the city. If you attacked an enemy PvP, even if your not pvp flagged you gained a temporary flag which allowed opposing factions to attack you even if you are not flagged for PvP. Which made the game immersive, but if you killed enough people in a city you could take it over. Which taxed people hardcore until you took the city back. Imagine 50% tax on all items in the market board and 100% tax for repair. Fighting in the streets of Ul'dah also made events which put the cities on guard but it made the game feel more real since all PvP was open world. SWG until the very end of its life had little to no instances.

[TheUltimate3]

SWG Rant

As a fellow, former SWG Player (Ahazi!) I would like to point out that telling someone how SWG was is pointless.

As great a game it was, the game's numbers overall were abysmal and it would, in no way, survive the MMO market of today. Hell it barely survived the MMO Market of it's day.

Added to that, the two games are, by design different. SWG was a sandbox, through and through and XIV is not. You can turn a sandbox into a vertical game with ease, but the same cannot be said about a vertical one.

[Zarzak]

#wayoveryourhead it seems. Back on point;

I made my point back on page 3, so no point expanding here, just as happy to log in, do my roulettes, some pvp, and work on my desynths/mining. The system of FFXIV vertical progression has been in place since the launch, and if you know how to work the system, it's easy to work around.

My point to this would be.. But does ANY OF THIS improve your main? That is the problem.

Even pvp.. You get rk 50 do a little dance then realize "welp.. too bad all this pvp gear is worthless because they somehow think it makes sense for higher rank pvpers to have an advantage over lower rank pvpers." I pvp now for my esoteric instead of expert roulette because I find it more fun... But every time I buy a new piece of pvp gear and it goes instantly to the "glamour stash" I die a little inside. A brand new top pvp tier item is COMPLETELY worthless as a piece of equipment. They could put no stats on it and it would be as useful as it is now.


I'm not saying to you roulettes/pvp/desynth/mining isn't fun.. That is great that you enjoy it. But I would wager a majority of players want to be able to pick 2 points in their play time and say "I am stronger now that I was then" Sadly XIV does not provide anything to make that happen.

The day my main hit ilvl 190 is the day he stopped having opportunity to improve in any way besides 4 events a week. Anything else I do is just to be a completionist. I have pld/whm to 50.. I HATE pld/whm.. But I did it because the alternative was paying for a game I don't play and sinking undetermined amounts of money into buying a console and some single player games to keep me busy in down time when I don't have any RL things to take care of and the wife/daughter are busy.

SWG was a game designed where you needed multiple players to help you

Assuming that was about crafting...

When the workshop for FC crafting was released I was excited "oh this could be cool group crafting".......................

I bought a stack of iron rivets off a merchant, crafted some steel, clicked a turn in button and then we all had to be in the same room to see a 5 second cutscene. Literally the only "group crafting" was watching that cutscene.. You need 1 person with lvl 50 crafts to make everything and 3 other people on lvl 1 crafters to sit afk in the room.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

My point to this would be.. But does ANY OF THIS improve your main? That is the problem.

Even pvp.. You get rk 50 do a little dance then realize "welp.. too bad all this pvp gear is worthless because they somehow think it makes sense for higher rank pvpers to have an advantage over lower rank pvpers." I pvp now for my esoteric instead of expert roulette because I find it more fun... But every time I buy a new piece of pvp gear and it goes instantly to the "glamour stash" I die a little inside. A brand new top pvp tier item is COMPLETELY worthless as a piece of equipment. They could put no stats on it and it would be as useful as it is now.


I'm not saying to you roulettes/pvp/desynth/mining isn't fun.. That is great that you enjoy it. But I would wager a majority of players want to be able to pick 2 points in their play time and say "I am stronger now that I was then" Sadly XIV does not provide anything to make that happen.

The day my main hit ilvl 190 is the day he stopped having opportunity to improve in any way besides 4 events a week. Anything else I do is just to be a completionist. I have pld/whm to 50.. I HATE pld/whm.. But I did it because the alternative was paying for a game I don't play and sinking undetermined amounts of money into buying a console and some single player games to keep me busy in down time when I don't have any RL things to take care of and the wife/daughter are busy.



Assuming that was about crafting...

When the workshop for FC crafting was released I was excited "oh this could be cool group crafting".......................

I bought a stack of iron rivets off a merchant, crafted some steel, clicked a turn in button and then we all had to be in the same room to see a 5 second cutscene. Literally the only "group crafting" was watching that cutscene.. You need 1 person with lvl 50 crafts to make everything and 3 other people on lvl 1 crafters to sit afk in the room.

Crafting in SWG would take a 60 page spreadsheet. So I don't think I could possibly explain it that way. However what I can say is a few words.
- Sub Sub Components.
- Sub Components crafted from Sub Sub Components.
- Components crafted from Sub components.
- Enhancement slots to add further customization to said items.
- Assembly/Experimentation.
- Being able to put Experimentation points in every sub sub, sub, component. End Result Greatly determined end stat.
- Completely Randomized Resources, PER server. Each server had its own resources.
- Being able to name and color crafted items and fully experiment on them.
- Item Decay - No item lasted forever. So even super duper legendary items left the game. This made crafting relevant forever.

Each server had its own completely randomized resources spawns which took place around the worlds. Crafters had to go around the worlds surveying it to find the best resources which could take hours.

They placed down harvestors and had to hire combat players to protect them for hours as they mined their resources.

Crafted players even had their own gear like combat players to craft and mine gear.

Servers had their own unique resources so some items were not even able to be made on some servers. T21s were not able to be made on Tarquinas for over a year because of this.

SWG to this day, has the most deep and complex crafting system out of any MMO by far.