What's the problem with Paladin?

[Souto_Nami]

I realize I haven't gotten into raids so any of the level 60 content yet or whatnot, but after seeing over and over people complaining and asking for pally to be reworked or buffed in some way I'm really curious as to why people think this

The topic seems to be about Alexander Savage mode(i have yet to find any topic about pally being bad outside of this topic, though given I could have missed a thread) and from my understanding the problem is meeting dps checks which makes it so pally gets left out since they don't bring the numbers. Which (again, in my understanding) has more to do with the dps classes not having the necessary gear to do this themselves. Because of this, progression raid teams brought in the tanks that could help the dps meet the check. This led to more and more people taking these proven methods of clearing the content and leaving the paladin out of the loop because of its dps.

So my question is, what is the reason so many people feel disheartened and are asking for a buff/rework when using a strategy used when the party doesn't have the gear necessary?

Or, if my understanding is wrong, at what point does the paladins shortcomings from A. Savage bleed to the 4 man(casual) content?

[Martin_Arcainess]

I think you have a misunderstanding. you're coming off that the DPS aint having the right gear is the problem, people don't have PLD. PLD's shortcoming is from itself regardless of gear the DPS has it's down to PLD not bringing the deeps as much as DRK or WAR. Here I'll do a table to show you what I mean.
*this is just a mock example*

PLD: 300 DPS
DRK: 500 DPS
4 DPS: 3200 DPS
2 Heals: 200 DPS

Total DPS: 4200,

now let's take that table party to a boss, say Faust. The Min DPS requirement of whole party is 4400. The Table above does not past the DPS check for now, maybe later on once everyone has more gear in say 2-3 weeks time.

Now redo the table again but change PLD out with WAR

WAR: 600 DPS
DRK: 550 DPS *thanks to WAR slashing debuff DRK's DPS has gone up by 50
4 DPS: 3200 DPS *this too could also go up if one of the DPS is a ninja.
2 Heals: 200 DPS

Total DPS: 4500,

Now thanks to swapping out WAR who has more DPS than the PLD and has slashing debuff to increase DRK's, WAR's and Ninja DPS this party set up can now clear the boss encounter which required the 4400 DPS check as a group.

So it's not down to what gear the DPS has *to a certain extent of course* but more due the fact PLD can't bring the deeps as much. Not saying it can't ever but you get stuff done sooner with a WAR/DRK in Savage.

[Brannigan]

Casual content is not difficult enough that any class will underperform to the point of being left out. Paladin's problems in Savage Alexander 3/4 have basically been in the making since 2.1ish, but for specifics:

-Weaker MT DPS than other tanks
-Their Utility/Support abilities being too weak in general (boss immunities, long cooldowns, Cover's general mediocrity, etc)
-Dark Knight's strengths being played to
-Paladin's strengths being largely negated
-Importance of INT debuff when it only comes from DRK and MNK
-DRK/PLD being an invalid tanking setup
-Other tanks have the same toughness

If Dark Knight's strengths weren't played to as much you'd probably just see a lot of warrior/warrior. Paladin's defensive advantage (as small as it actually is) doesn't mean diddly if other tanks can survive all the same stuff. Paladin's support/utility also is more plentiful but less useful than the other two tanks' (Slashing debuff/Damage debuff vs Reprisal/Int Debuff vs Cover/Veil/STR debuff/Heals).

Anyway, this stuff is pretty much why I switched at A3S. I really didn't want to. Paladin's skill set in general lacks synergy that WAR has (and to a lesser extent DRK). It didn't matter as much in 2.0, but it's starting to show a lot now.

[Souto_Nami]

Oh okay, I can understand that. Paladins do have low dps so it makes sense. Though, that still leaves my question open as this situation only applies to one (or 4 if you don't like to group the 4 floors) encounter(s). One in which a small portion of the community will ever actually do. While the class works well in every other facet of the game.

So wouldn't the answer be changing the harder encounters to be balanced around all classes rather than changing how a class works?

Or is paladin really in a position where regardless of the mechanics of the harder content, because of how the class is balanced, it's never going to be "viable"?

[Kaonis]

The problem isn't so much PLD as it's the content. All the content in the game is so heavily focused on DPS, and that was doubled down on in savage. WAR is also too good at what they do, including DPS so they are basically guaranteed in any group. And since doubling up hurts LB (and honestly that's the only reason double WAR isn't widely used) the second tank slot on endgame is between DRK and PLD, and DRK edges out purely on DPS grounds. On top of that too much of the fights cater to DRK's move set.

So that's basically the short of why PLD is in a bad spot. It's got some issues with clemency, shield swipe, and divine veil that need to be patched up, but they aren't terrible. It's just the devs forgot it existed in the current end game model.

[Souto_Nami]

The problem....

This is why I hate editing on the phone, takes too long to type/edit something and I miss stuff ._.

[RiisWolf]

Weakest Threat Multipliers
Weakest Damage (damage to threat, damage to win)
Weakest AoE Threat (A huge issue for A2S because flash doesn't hurt anything and CoS barely hurts a thing. Why is there no circle slash!?)
Weak RNG Damage Reduction (blocks 20% of 15% of total hits)
Weak CD Damage Reduction (relies too much on long CDs)
Weak Self Sustainability (no barrier, interruptible slow heal)
Flash. (F this skill)
Weak. (Your very involvement means things will take longer)

[Transfinite]

How where the raids like back in BCOB, 2nd Coil, and FCOB? Surely progression statics weren't running Warrior/Warrior compositions just so the World First groups could meet the DPS requirements in low level gear?

[Synestra]

How where the raids like back in BCOB, 2nd Coil, and FCOB? Surely progression statics weren't running Warrior/Warrior compositions just so the World First groups could meet the DPS requirements in low level gear?

DPS checks were not that bad as SE didnt plan that tanks and healers would pump out some decent DPS(most fights were propably planned to be done in fending items in mind)so when tanks rolled a crafted accesories and STR build it kinda broke dps checks. Also PLD was pretty much solo tanking most fights because all big hitters where physical and that kinda favored PLD CD kit not to mention passive migitation via blocks/parry, also WAR was there as an additional melee DPS and for provoking if there was a swap mechanic. In 2nd coil WAR actually got leftout in some fights due solo tanking so your team could take another DPS job to brake dps checks even harder.

But now all savage fights are tuned tank and healer DPS in mind so thats why we started to see these flaws, before it was just a nice extra now its required.

[ArdorGrey]

I agree with most of what you said, with the exception of drk/pld being an invalid setup. It's just a setup that's heavily reliant on ninja prescence. This can be worked around and pld's cover also synergizes well with ninja buffing drk mt aggro and pld covering drk mt to push more raid dps. most people either don't think outside the box or dont want to bring a nin OR war to the raid and then complain their tanks can't push dps. That's like a bard or mch being expected to push top dps without a drg, it's silly and it does not mean that bard and mch need their own piercing debuffs.

I also don't agree that plds weaknesses have been showing since 2.1. PLD's could MT most fights including progression in swordoath after a warrior gave them a springboard opener(even without this, but it made way more sense for the WAR to open). Between being able to safely MT in dps stance full time, and doing more dps than war as long as a war or nin had eye up, AND having HG, pld was in a stupid op place for most of 2.1, and part of how grossly exaggerrated their current issues are is a backlash of this.

Other than that the lack of synergy is showing and the physical defense specialty is stupid when all of alex caters to magic defense, I totally agree the class is in an awkward place atm and needs some adjustments.