What's the problem with Paladin?

[Synestra]

How where the raids like back in BCOB, 2nd Coil, and FCOB? Surely progression statics weren't running Warrior/Warrior compositions just so the World First groups could meet the DPS requirements in low level gear?

DPS checks were not that bad as SE didnt plan that tanks and healers would pump out some decent DPS(most fights were propably planned to be done in fending items in mind)so when tanks rolled a crafted accesories and STR build it kinda broke dps checks. Also PLD was pretty much solo tanking most fights because all big hitters where physical and that kinda favored PLD CD kit not to mention passive migitation via blocks/parry, also WAR was there as an additional melee DPS and for provoking if there was a swap mechanic. In 2nd coil WAR actually got leftout in some fights due solo tanking so your team could take another DPS job to brake dps checks even harder.

But now all savage fights are tuned tank and healer DPS in mind so thats why we started to see these flaws, before it was just a nice extra now its required.

[Jim_Berry]

DPS checks were not that bad as SE didnt plan that tanks and healers would pump out some decent DPS(most fights were propably planned to be done in fending items in mind)so when tanks rolled a crafted accesories and STR build it kinda broke dps checks. Also PLD was pretty much solo tanking most fights because all big hitters where physical and that kinda favored PLD CD kit not to mention passive migitation via blocks/parry, also WAR was there as an additional melee DPS and for provoking if there was a swap mechanic. In 2nd coil WAR actually got leftout in some fights due solo tanking so your team could take another DPS job to brake dps checks even harder.

But now all savage fights are tuned tank and healer DPS in mind so thats why we started to see these flaws, before it was just a nice extra now its required.

Nice! I never thought about it this way. *INSIGHTFUL*

[RiisWolf]

Weakest Threat Multipliers
Weakest Damage (damage to threat, damage to win)
Weakest AoE Threat (A huge issue for A2S because flash doesn't hurt anything and CoS barely hurts a thing. Why is there no circle slash!?)
Weak RNG Damage Reduction (blocks 20% of 15% of total hits)
Weak CD Damage Reduction (relies too much on long CDs)
Weak Self Sustainability (no barrier, interruptible slow heal)
Flash. (F this skill)
Weak. (Your very involvement means things will take longer)

[AsteriaStarfall]

Weakest AoE Threat (A huge issue for A2S because flash doesn't hurt anything and CoS barely hurts a thing. Why is there no circle slash!?)

Just started playing pally this past couple weeks. This was the first thing i noticed when leveling. I was totally surprised that no damage AoE ability was present until level 50. Hell the other tanks get AoE abilities at lvl 12, why those would not be cross class able is beyond me. I like the look of paladin, and will continue to play it. I however do not raid savage, so that's probably best for me.
Seriously, just my mind was blown that there were no AoE dps spells before level 50, and then the one at 50 has a medium CD.

If i was to redesign the spell: 5 second CD, and uses mana. That way it would balance out the quicker recasts, Potency of 175, and learned at lvl 20

[RiisWolf]

Just started playing pally this past couple weeks. This was the first thing i noticed when leveling. I was totally surprised that no damage AoE ability was present until level 50. Hell the other tanks get AoE abilities at lvl 12, why those would not be cross class able is beyond me. I like the look of paladin, and will continue to play it. I however do not raid savage, so that's probably best for me.
Seriously, just my mind was blown that there were no AoE dps spells before level 50, and then the one at 50 has a medium CD.

If i was to redesign the spell: 5 second CD, and uses mana. That way it would balance out the quicker recasts, Potency of 175, and learned at lvl 20

Coming out of WoW and many MMOs it was among the first things I noticed too. And it was way worse in 2.0. So bad that I lost interest in the game at 20 altogether, until 2.2. Only to find out Paladin is still. .. .UGH!

My first Garuda run was the final straw in 2.2, as we wiped out for over an hour because nobody could kill the plumes fast enough. Wouldn't happen if someone AoE'd, but the monks won't, the sch didn't have time, and I couldn't. So I went to warrior and everything was infinitely better. I still keep my paladin at end game level even though I hate it.

If anything I think gore blade would be better off as an AoE or if CoS was learned at a much earlier point than 50 . . . .. Or if we got a circle slash.

[Synestra]

If anything I think gore blade would be better off as an AoE or if CoS was learned at a much earlier point than 50 . . . .. Or if we got a circle slash.

Actually RA would be better canditade for being AoE, atleast if you base this on animation as RA looks like mini-holy when you use it, or Shield Swipe because well... its called a swipe afterall.

[TheLastRaven]

If this is a bit out of topic let me know. I think that paladin could have some simple buffs to help it out and not make it OP or anything. One of the main problems is the lack of DPS this could be fixed or at least balanced more by doing something like fixing sword oath which in my opinion is garbage. Sword gives you an amazing 50 extra potency to auto attacks why can't this be changed to something better like 10% dmg increase with the 5% accuracy increase from shield oath or 10% dmg increase overall or 10%% dmg increase and and the auto attack potency. Even just a 5% increase would be nice to have something other than the dinky 50 potency maybe even a bit higher. One of the things that has bothered me for a long time was that if a warrior kept maim up with their tanking stance their dmg reduction is only 5% right? Paladin seems a bit forced to rely on Fight or Flight for dmg increase while tanking or dps'ing granted its 30% dmg increase but overall its not gonna be much.

There is also the fact that it seems it any of the other tanks want to especially warrior they can just rip aggro through tanking or pure aggression. They could also give paladin a natural dmg buff that isnt oath based like a 10% innate dmg buff buffing their global dmg up by that 10%. The dps increase would help generate aggro on either stance and up dps in turn making them more useful overall. The class is kind of reliant on its cooldowns but with proper manangement i've never found it an issue. As for abilities not stances/oaths that could be changed I believe the PVP skill glory slash would be great in PvE just without the knock back having 200 potency and being an aoe frontal cone aggro generating move. Other than flash we don't have much in terms of aoe aggro generation however that makes sense seeing as paladin is more of a single target tank. However it couldn't hurt to give one aoe ability. Rage of halone could be altered to be a smaller cone aoe at least it would be something. Circle of scorn could also generate a bit more aggro or deal more dmg per tick since its potency is 30 why not make it 50? Not a game breaking buff I would think. We could also buff shield oath to be more useful and have a larger aggro generation maybe or dmg reduction or both.

[Jonnycbad]

-As I understand it, DoT doesn't generate Threat. Therefore, please allow Circle of Scorn to do its full 250 potency upfront instead of over time.

-Give Spirits Within an enmity multiplier and give it 300 potency MINIMUM, but a scaling potency BONUS closer to full HP.

-Give Sword Oath a 10% haste bonus or at least a damage bonus, the 50 potency auto attack doesn't help much.

-Buff Shield Swipe's potency to 270 or something so it isn't a DPS loss.

[TheLastRaven]

-As I understand it, DoT doesn't generate Threat. Therefore, please allow Circle of Scorn to do its full 250 potency upfront instead of over time.

-Give Spirits Within an enmity multiplier and give it 300 potency MINIMUM, but a scaling potency BONUS closer to full HP.

-Give Sword Oath a 10% haste bonus or at least a damage bonus, the 50 potency auto attack doesn't help much.

-Buff Shield Swipe's potency to 270 or something so it isn't a DPS loss.

- I still think a simple dot potency increase would suffice maybe a base potency or overall threat generation increase.

- I don't think we should have abilities where damage can scale based on HP. Spirits within is an an ability I think is perfectly fine right now.

- We could still have 50 potency but sword oath being the dps stance just needs some form of a % buff to be a simple easy fix.

- Shield swipe could just apply a buff or debuff. For a buff it could be like storms eye decreases slashing resistance or applying a defense bonus.

[Donjo]

-As I understand it, DoT doesn't generate Threat. Therefore, please allow Circle of Scorn to do its full 250 potency upfront instead of over time.

-Give Spirits Within an enmity multiplier and give it 300 potency MINIMUM, but a scaling potency BONUS closer to full HP.

-Give Sword Oath a 10% haste bonus or at least a damage bonus, the 50 potency auto attack doesn't help much.

-Buff Shield Swipe's potency to 270 or something so it isn't a DPS loss.

- Last time I heard about the subject, it was proven that DOT ticks do generate threat. However, I believe it was also observed that Circle of Scorn's initial hit has a multiplier on enmity but its DOT ticks do not.

- I always thought it might be neat to let Spirits Within ignore the Shield Oath damage penalty, but it would appear that SE is definitely only letting Warriors do such things.

- Unless the nerf to Determination was truly astronomical, Sword Oath's extra hits were showing increases of between 10-13% total damage over no stance at all in 2.X. Even if a couple of percentage points have been knocked off, it still shows that the 50 potency attack is more helpful than it looks.

- It would appear that Shield Swipe's purpose was never to be a powerful attack. Even in 2.0 the potency/GCD gain was very small. It exists to supplement TP levels(which is a DPS gain in any situation where TP flooring is a danger) and more recently to enable the use of more non Halone Combos while Tanking(using 1 Halone combo is a greater loss than slipping even 2 Shield Swipes into one of the other combos). Well, and Pacification, but that's mostly just an amusement to play with in the open world. Never using it at all will be a greater DPS loss than utilizing it when it can prevent a loss elsewhere. It is also worth keeping in mind that using Shield Swipe at least once during every application of Goring Blade will prevent the dot from getting its last tick clipped off during a normal rotation of Goring > Other > Other > Repeat, which adds up in long fights.