what happens if second half of Alex is all physical?

[Syzygian]

But let's be real. Unless your healers are bad or you're all undergeared, you don't have to do that. As a DRK, you should DA DM + SW the first, Living Dead the second, DA DM + SW the last with Delirium and maybe Reprisal up for the first and last. Still more than enough to survive the hits. It lets you use your SS purely to reduce the general incoming damage. Between SS and Conva, you can negate the mitigation loss from dropping Grit and tank all of the fight while pure DPSing and further increase the gap between DRK and PLD DPS.

See, the problem I have with scenarios like this is that it speaks volumes more to your healers' skill than yours, or DRK/PLD's ability to mitigate damage in relation to one another, for that matter. And lets not pretend all of us were never "undergeared" whatever that means for this current level of progression. Strats change on a weekly basis, stuff people were doing two weeks ago with an eso weapon and maybe one other piece are bound to be inefficient now with 5+ pieces and possibly even 210 pieces. I just am baffled with strats like this where tanks actually go out of their way to mitigate as little damage as possible and dump it all on their healers' shoulders, and their healers let them. IMO its a huge flaw in raid design that this is even possible. And how is this "pushing performance"? Its lazy tanking. You're essentially a DPS that has aggro, and require almost as much effort to heal. Your healers may not cop to this, but it wouldn't shock me if that's all they've known.

On that note, have you ever actually tanked outside of Grit? Have you done it with a WAR OT? Obnoxious is not a strong enough word. You have to constantly babysit their enmity, and your aggro combo is your weakest DPS while their's is their strongest. Its not a huge deal, but yet another flaw in design that the game caters further to this kind of play for some jobs over the others. Everyone wants every tank to be WAR, stance dancing and dpsing and its straight-up not the same.

In regards to the actual debate in this thread, if you're going to factor in usage of Convalescence (which I didn't because while its a good CD, its not true mitigation b/c it requires intervention on your healer's part to be useful) for DRK you have to assume the PLD is doing the same (and getting more mileage out of it due to their trait). Delirium and Reprisal are awesome and a good DRK should try and have these up for a tank buster unless a big raidwide Gigaflare-type thing is coming, but if you're going to factor these in, you could just as easily factor in PLD's ability to Stoneskin and Clemency themselves before a big hit like this. What I'm actually saying is that PLD's mitigation isn't the lacking part, its their DPS, which, like BRD and MCN, is probably lower on the whole due to the fact that they have way more utility (WAR has Path/high MT/OT dps, DRK has Delirium/Reprisal, high mobility/AoE and MT dps... and PLD has Halone, Cover, Stoneskin, Clemency, Divine Veil, an emergency button that requires zero intervention on the part of anyone else in the party, etc.)

And I main DRK and I still realize that I can't support my party through my own mitigation and utilities like a PLD can. Obviously I still use these tools but I know my job's place in the spectrum. The biggest flaw in PLD right now is that you can't play the job effectively, taking advantage of everything it brings to the raid, in the current DPS fetishization that is the tanking metagame in FFXIV. Its a WAR's meta, the only reason DRK is getting any love is because A. its new and B. Dark Mind lets you LOL @ magic.

[Brannigan]

Assuming one considers Dark Dance and Bulwark to be roughly equivalent CDs (consider their relative uptime/duration/recast/potency), and the fact that Dark Dance can, beyond the use of the buff itself, be used to control Reprisal usage, then really the only tool PLD edges DRK out on physically is Sheltron, which barely counts.

Bulwark is trash except against trash. Halone is the real X factor when it comes to physical damage, but you're right about DRK's physical mitigation not being as bad as people make it out to be.

[Syzygian]

Bulwark is trash except against trash. Halone is the real X factor when it comes to physical damage, but you're right about DRK's physical mitigation not being as bad as people make it out to be.

Bulwark is actually not trash at all, with the right shield you can get close to a 100% block rate which made it an integral part of CD rotations for things like Flatten in t13. DRK's physical mitigation lies in intelligent usage of Dark Dance and Reprisal synergy, and cooldown combinations like Foresight+Awareness are just as effective for DRK as for the other tanks at toning down boss autos and trash damage.

Halone really isn't in a great spot right now. Its awkward duration makes it difficult for PLD to rotate its combos correctly. If you moved that debuff to the Royal Authority combo that would solve everything- spam Halone till you have a good lead, then alternate between RA and Goring Blade. I think WAR's aggro combo being its top DPS is really crappy as well. It has to make a DPS sacrifice to provide utility to its party, and if the PLD or DRK MT wants to tank outside their tank stance, they can't maintain a proper DPS rotation because they are having to constantly go back to their enmity combo to babysit the WAR's aggro. Honestly I think DRK has the best designed combos at the moment, enabling and encouraging players to get a solid lead on enmity early and quickly, having high base potencies, and then leaving you free to do good dps which is happens to be married to the combos that have the most utility (delirium and souleater) for themselves and the raid.

[Brannigan]

Bulwark is actually not trash at all, with the right shield you can get close to a 100% block rate which made it an integral part of CD rotations for things like Flatten in t13.

Nah, Bulwark is trash for busters. 3 minute cooldown and still leaves you with a significant chance to take the hit on the chin. With a Diamond Shield and a lot of dexterity you could push it to 100%, but it wasn't really practical. Like, yeah, use it, but it isn't good. It's just better than nothing.

[carbonx]

I don't feel physical/magic strengths or utility were the real deciding factor for people going DRK in Alex. While some mechanics are difficult, the real struggle after a couple of runs in particular phases is polishing DPS to meet hard checks. When you start looking at the major difference between DRK and PLD, it's simply Darkside, which essentially makes for the difference in PLD v. DRK MT dps. PLD can and will be around the same as a DRK outside of their respective tank stances, and a lot of PLDs have opted to tank outside of Shield Oath to meet dps checks. However, your healers can basically decide whether they would rather have someone who could afford the DPS loss of staying in tank stance often versus a tank that needs to drop their tank stance to put out sizable damage.

In addition, having cleared A3S without Delirium or Dragon Kick, I know how much of a boon Delirium is in magic heavy environments on healing and feasibility of mechanics.

[Brian_]

snip

I read all this and no offense, but it just sounds like you don't know what you're saying or doing.

I've tanked AS1 with DRK, PLD, and WAR. In tank stance and not in tank stance with PLD/DRK/WAR OTs. With good healers and with bad healers. First, enmity should not be an issue regardless of your tank pairing. Second, lazy tanking is not trying to maximize your class. And, in this meta, maximizing your class means maximizing your DPS as a raid unit. So, say what you will about relying on healers. If you are turtling it up then it's the healers that should be pushing their DPS. The risk in you dying is all the same. It's just a matter of you taking that risk or the healers taking that risk. And, it's much more practical for tanks to be the ones pushing their DPS because they have better uptime, meet the ACC caps without support, can better control incoming damage with the CDs, and can just focus on themselves rather than healing an entire raid.

There is no way for PLD to cast Clemency before a tank buster because it will get interrupted by an auto attack. The same goes for SS. And, SS can also get eaten up by an auto attack. Clemency and SS are only usable during down time.

So, in terms of "way more utility." Halone is so insignificant in AS1 that PLDs don't bother. All it does is slightly decrease auto attack damage. Delirium and Reprisal on the other hand actually decrease important damage like the cleave and tank buster. Cover is useful for prey targets except with the way healers coordinate their healing for preys, it's not always good to randomly redirect prey damage to a tank. Also, because of the range restriction and CD on cover, you can't consistently use it. You also take damage based on the covered target's mitigation. Do you know what healers hate the most? Inconsistency. Stoneskin is nice during downtime but useless otherwise. Clemency is uncastable whenever it's actually needed. Divine Veil is nice but it's a weak shield on a long CD and requires an activator. HG is irrelevant because it's used in a PLD's CD rotation. So no, they don't have much utility at all. DRK and WAR utility both crap all over PLDs as things currently are. If you're a DRK that doesn't realize how much better than PLD you are, you need to be a better DRK.

[Syzygian]

I've tanked AS1 with DRK, PLD, and WAR. In tank stance and not in tank stance with PLD/DRK/WAR OTs. With good healers and with bad healers. First, enmity should not be an issue regardless of your tank pairing. Second, lazy tanking is not trying to maximize your class. And, in this meta, maximizing your class means maximizing your DPS as a raid unit. So, say what you will about relying on healers. If you are turtling it up then it's the healers that should be pushing their DPS. The risk in you dying is all the same. It's just a matter of you taking that risk or the healers taking that risk. And, it's much more practical for tanks to be the ones pushing their DPS because they have better uptime, meet the ACC caps without support, can better control incoming damage with the CDs, and can just focus on themselves rather than healing an entire raid.

This is debatable, as percentage gains to damage you're gonna be dealing one way or the other is wholly different from healers having to heal 99% of the time or getting off numerous whole GCDs worth of damage that otherwise would not have happened altogether. That having been said, I default to pentamelds and equip further slaying or fending gear depending on the fight and abilities of the rest of my party. Maximizing your own performance is great, and you should always be striving to do so, but as a tank you have a higher responsibility to facilitate max performance for the rest of the raid and if you're gimping your ability to keep the maintenance/support that you require at least somewhat low on the whole, you're doing an extreme disservice to your raid group. to say otherwise is putting unrealistic importance on your DPS in relation to the rest of the party, unless that extra DPS that you, special little ol' you, are doing is actually making the difference between enrage or a skipped phase...

Its been said in other threads, but it bears repeating here, that excess dps beyond what is needed to meet enrages or skip phases is just as fluff as excess mitigation beyond what is needed to comfortably survive outgoing damage, and we are nowhere near overgearing savage raids enough for either of those points to be pertinent ammunition for any argument. When you're pushing two plasmas in A1S then sure. That extra tank deeps is definitely pulling its weight.

There is no way for PLD to cast Clemency before a tank buster because it will get interrupted by an auto attack. The same goes for SS. And, SS can also get eaten up by an auto attack. Clemency and SS are only usable during down time.

You can find countless written guides (here's one example: http://suiko.guildwork.com/forum/thr...xander-1-guide) that attest to the falsehood of this statement. During/after the cleave that precedes this particular tankbuster you have more than enough time to do both of these things.

So, in terms of "way more utility." Halone is so insignificant in AS1 that PLDs don't bother. All it does is slightly decrease auto attack damage. Delirium and Reprisal on the other hand actually decrease important damage like the cleave and tank buster. Cover is useful for prey targets except with the way healers coordinate their healing for preys, it's not always good to randomly redirect prey damage to a tank. Also, because of the range restriction and CD on cover, you can't consistently use it. You also take damage based on the covered target's mitigation. Do you know what healers hate the most? Inconsistency. Stoneskin is nice during downtime but useless otherwise. Clemency is uncastable whenever it's actually needed. Divine Veil is nice but it's a weak shield on a long CD and requires an activator. HG is irrelevant because it's used in a PLD's CD rotation. So no, they don't have much utility at all. DRK and WAR utility both crap all over PLDs as things currently are. If you're a DRK that doesn't realize how much better than PLD you are, you need to be a better DRK.

Halone is absolutely insignificant in that fight, you're right. I don't recall ever playing it up in the post we're referring to. However, yes to everything else you said here. I pretty much said that PLD is unable to shine in the current raid meta because its DRK does better DPS and outshines it in magic mitigation, but that PLD still has way more utility from an objective standpoint, but none of the current content allows players to effectively take advantage of it. In fact you pretty much parroted back a lot of the things that I said using different words, so I'm hesitant to believe you both read and comprehended it all.

I play DRK because I enjoy it more, but in a vacuum, all the tanks have pretty equal degrees of mitigation that they have to work with, the difference is pretty solely in DPS and what they bring to the party in terms of raid utility. And as I said, as tank DPS increases, their utility decreases. I'd argue that Delirium+Reprisal is equal to or better than Path by itself, and PLD has a ton of extra tools in addition to rough equivalents of these abilities, its just that none of them are useful. You know what is? DPS. That's really all the difficulty in current content is about is DPS checks. Why do you think everyone is crying for their job to have more DPS, not utility? As I said, its a WAR's meta. Minimal mitigation/utility, max DPS. Until squeenix realizes that by continuously churning out fights where DPS is the only thing that matters certain jobs, like PLD, are gonna continue to get the shaft. The TLDR of it is, as i said, in a vacuum- DPS: WAR>DRK>PLD and utility: PLD>DRK>WAR. But no one cares about utility, what is important to clear these fights is DPS. DPS DPS DPS. We need a change in raid design.

And as for me being a better DRK being dependent on my perceived e-peen size in relation to people playing other jobs and whether or not they are capable as a player of pulling their weight, I prefer to respect other people and keep in mind that the current content just so happens to favor me and my job in a big way. Realistically speaking, we're probably heading for a dual-WAR raiding meta. I realize I do better DPS and have better magic mitigation than a PLD, among other things, but I also realize WAR can do the same thing, do more DPS, with literally no drawbacks or hurdles to deal with, basically telling PLD and DRK to git gud, whilst pretty much having the job that is the easiest to maximize if one has any experience playing a DPS job and maximizing a rotation. And as I've said elsewhere on this forum, squeenix has solidly put their foots in their mouths by saying that part of WAR's "utility" is DPS. Utilities are things that are nice to have, that you can do without. You can't give the single most important thing to raiders in this game to a job, a LOT of it, and call it a utility. The way they're designing raids, that's not utility, its straight-up making some jobs better than others.

[Duelle]

The TLDR of it is, as i said, in a vacuum- DPS: WAR>DRK>PLD and utility: PLD>DRK>WAR. But no one cares about utility, what is important to clear these fights is DPS. DPS DPS DPS. We need a change in raid design.

It'd take a little more than just a change in raid design. I guess you could design raids moving forward along the lines of Final Coil and up the damage where appropriate, or maybe going in the direction of healing checks, but that would create other issues (AST is put in the hot seat instead of PLD; WAR would still be involved since healing checks value mitigation of raid damage, and WAR happens to have a perma-10% debuff on boss damage).

And as I've said elsewhere on this forum, squeenix has solidly put their foots in their mouths by saying that part of WAR's "utility" is DPS. Utilities are things that are nice to have, that you can do without. You can't give the single most important thing to raiders in this game to a job, a LOT of it, and call it a utility. The way they're designing raids, that's not utility, its straight-up making some jobs better than others.

This simply underlines an issue I have with their design philosophy for tanks: they use utility to separate the tanks and pass off performance incongruity as "features".

The funny thing about a double WAR meta is that I remember reading the only reason raids haven't gone in that direction yet is to avoid the penalty on the LB bar. Once they get around that I'm thinking it'll be a given if things stay the way they currently are.

[Kemas]

Dps is the issue BECAUSE of enmity. That's what people fail to realize. Even minor changes to our enmity modifiers would directly impact our outgoing dps due to the ability to use more RA's over RoH combos.

[Kemas]

Oh and PLD utility is an absolute joke right now aside from HG being able to mitigate full damage allowing other jobs to maximize their potential during the same window- and even that would be miraculous if your healers were aware enough to switch to full dps during Hg's duration. Our other "utility" is quite negligible atm with the way the abilities trigger.