The Motivation for King Thordan and the Knights Twelve? (HW Spoilers)

[Cilia]

In which case won't it be fun when someone takes out Nidhogg to save Estinien and eats the eye with Lahabrea lodged in it. It's like musical chairs only with more laughing.

(If he's in there and still alive, I will seriously lose my marbles.)

Anyway, given this seems to be a hearkening back to classical Final Fantasy titles where light = good, so more light = more good, I'd say killing all the Ascians and preventing Zodiark's revival is probably our ultimate goal. Any number of theories can be thrown around, but until Elidibus feels like sharing with the class, that's all we have...

[FJerome]

1. Nidhogd is the one who told them that their eyes are their source of power and expecting that they will kill his brood sister and give him an excuse to kill them and break their alliance. And maybe he had some grudge against her.

That would be genuinely interesting. Really at this point I just want to find out more about Ratatoskr in general, other than just "she died and we're mad about it".

I'm not sure what Thordan I's actual motivation was. My assumption based on a surface reading of the lore was that he learned Dragons derive longevity from their eyes so he and his knights killed Ratatoskr and ate her eyes to try and gain immortality.

Yeah, if the Ascians did have a hand in it (please no), this is more the sort of thing I'd imagine having happened?

The Ascians haven't, up to now, been the root cause of anything, only the enablers. The Garleans still want to conquer, the Ala Mhigans still want their city back, the Beast Tribes still want protection and vengeance; the Ascians have just been stepping in to take advantage of that.

In which case won't it be fun when someone takes out Nidhogg to save Estinien and eats the eye with Lahabrea lodged in it. It's like musical chairs only with more laughing.

Or we THINK we got Estinien back but what we get is Lahabrea in an Estinien suit (Estinien has a possession problem, don't judge him).

. . . Really, tho', it would be hilarious if Lahabrea possessed Nidhogg, if only to watch Elidibus scramble to try and find a robe big enough to fit him.

[CyrilLucifer]

So who told Thordan about the eye? Maybe an Ascian. Maybe Lahabrea himself.

In which case won't it be fun when someone takes out Nidhogg to save Estinien and eats the eye with Lahabrea lodged in it. It's like musical chairs only with more laughing.

If I eat the eye, will I have a permanent laughing Laha snarking at me in my head? I'm okay with this.

[Daralii]

If I eat the eye, will I have a permanent laughing Laha snarking at me in my head? I'm okay with this.

Adding his voice to the Beast, the Darkness, the Dragon Within, and Hydaelyn?

The WoL must have a chorus in their head at this point.

[CGMidlander]

Adding his voice to the Beast, the Darkness, the Dragon Within, and Hydaelyn?

The WoL must have a chorus in their head at this point.

And the occasional linkpearl call from Minfilia. lol

[FJerome]

And the occasional linkpearl call from Minfilia. lol

That's what I was thinking. "Wouldn't she just drown them out?".

[JeniLinsky]

So, why exactly did King Thordan and his knights decide to murder and eat one of their allies in a way that was guaranteed to sunder their existing civilisation?

It was Alphinaud's fault. Just like everything else from 2.1 onward.

[Sissymandias]

We don't know exactly what Thordan I & his knights' motives were since we only got one cutscene about it from their perspective, and they didn't exactly spell it out plain then. I can't rewatch the scene right now to verify, but my impressions at the time were:

-They don't come off 'evil' to me at all, in fact they all seem really drained from the whole experience & didnt find it something to be celebrated (some of them anyway..?)
-I dont recall any mention of ascians in that scene but im almost certain theyre involved. Just seems like something they would be behind.

Based on that it seems to me like part of their motive in killing and taking Ratatoskr's eyes was that they were performing some kind of necessary evil (possibly due to ascians misleading them into thinking so). So that might make it similar to Thordan VII's motives in that sense, but unlike the archbishop, Thordan I & co seemed to at least show some measure of remorse for what they'd done, even if they felt it was justified.

[Nalien]

So, why exactly did King Thordan and his knights decide to murder and eat one of their allies in a way that was guaranteed to sunder their existing civilisation?

The hint is in the name; King Thordan.

He was a King. He should be the absolute ruler of his nation. When you're allied with immortal dragons though? The whole concept of Royalty eventually goes out the window; He would grow old, his reign would end, and he'd die. Meanwhile his Dravanian "allies" would remain. Who do you think his people would look to in a time of crisis? He could be the best damned King ever, but his wisdom and combat skills would still pale in comparison to that of any of Midgardsormrs children. If shit hits the fan, I'd go calling on Hraesvelgr for advice/assistance, not Thordan... Just look at the Battle of Silvertear Skies; None of the leaders in Eorzea could have dealt with that, but Midgardsormr just cleans the floor with Garlemald... If you're a King, and you're allied to that... Well, you're not really a King anymore... You're just another weak mortal...

So he ended up coveting that power and decided to try and take it by force... Whether he always knew about their Eyes, or the Ascians clued him in, I can't really say since there is no indication. I imagine his motivation was almost exactly the same as Thordan VII's though; "I'll become God-King and rule forever", except Nidhogg still managed to kill him. I imagine that is why his Knights were so dejected at the end, they were aiming for immortality and they clearly didn't get it. They took down Ratatoskr as mortals and hoped to become powerful after consuming her, yet when Nidhogg found them, he managed to kill several of them, including their hoped-to-be God-King. They had clearly made a serious mistake and they all knew it, the best they hoped for was that their display would scare off the rest of the horde. That's why Haldrath passed up his reign to instead hunt dragons, to keep them scared.

Had Nidhogg not survived that might actually have worked and they could have lived in peace. They'd be worse off than when they were allied to the Dravanians, but they'd be better off than they were before that alliance. We actually didn't get a time frame for that conflict did we? We're just told that Shiva and Hraesvelgr managed to end it when Shiva sacrificed herself by letting Hraesvelgr eat her (perhaps that's where Thordan got the idea, actually...), if Elezen were still alive who remembered that conflict then there could perhaps have still been some resentment on their side, which would make breaking the alliance easier, more-so if breaking it gains you a God-King and unlimited power to give you the edge this time.

Of course, it might have been really simple; Thordan just wanted a new pair of Wyvernskin Boots, so he had to slaughter Ratatoskr. Crafting in this game really does a great job of flying in the face of the narrative... I can pop out my Midgardsormr minion and go about slaughtering Wyverns and Dragons for their skins, because I need them for crafting, yet Midgardsormr still goes "Oh yes, Hydaelyns Champion helped bring peace between our people!". No Middy, I've perhaps slaughtered more dragons than Ishgard has in its entire history, all for their skins, and I blame Rowena. I go about slaughtering sentient dragons just for crafting collectables... I hope next expansion gives us Lalafell Skins and Lalafell Leather (and Miqo'te Furs and Au Ra Scales), because going through the story and then having to farm Dragon Skins for crafting is just as grim... And people complain that PvP flies in the face of this games themes... Crafting puts you on a genocidal campaign against all life on Hydaelyn, the Warrior of Darkness was just on Warrior to farm materials, he actually mains Culinarian...

[myahele]

Yeah, I'm sure Asciens influenced their decisions, but for the most part resentment and envy was within them from the start.

With so many depiction of dragons in proto-ishgard architecture, it seem pretty clear they revered dragons greatly. In fact, it's nothing but dragons and Shiva in their architecture. No Elezens and no Halone.