Religion is bad, M'kay?

[IoannesBellator]

Some characters are very religious, despite knowing that the leaders of their faith are corrupt. There is Lucia who calls on Halone for strength. Garleans are more or less atheist and yet there she is, praying to Her during steps of faith.

It's not the faith that is bad, but the ones who call themselves leaders of men. Even the druid/shamanism of Gridania has draconian aspects that are easily corruptable.

I can accept this point of view. But what is a faith when it's highly individualized? Lucia does provide an example of a faithful of Halone surprisingly from Garlemald, but Lucia alone does not make the Church of Halone; If treated legitimately, the Church of Halone would have been more than ineffectual. As of now, it's a 2-dimensional portrayal of a Church that has all these institutions that were established in its 1,000 years of existence. Suddenly, everyone accepts the "Enlightenment" they receive from the Warrior of Light? Easy Evangelism.

[IoannesBellator]

My knowledge of Eastern history is not too great; however, I believe you are correct, though not for the reasons most people believe..

There were plenty of successes in Christian missions to Japan, mostly because peasants who fear being killed by their Samurai overlords have something to look forward to than rot indefinitely (Yomi in Shinto) or be reincarnated into a hit-or-miss future life (Buddhism). When St. Francis Xavier landed in Japan, the Japanese were very sharp: they'd ask questions like "If this is the true religion, why arrive just now?" And that's not a bad thing because it made missionaries shape up their theology and and show the best they can offer. And then the native Buddhist religious leaders got insecure and everyone else didn't like any departure from the status quo "Peasants having the same fundamental dignity as I? I think not!" And quickly got rid of the Christian missionaries.

[Akiza]

And so the problem with non-Western religions is that they can get away with being wishy-washy since they are filled with magical thought than rational philosophy. It had been the last stages of Aristotelian/Platonic philosophy that had arrived to the conclusion reiterated by Western religions: 1.What ever begins to exist has a cause. 2.The universe began to exist. 3. Therefore, the universe has a cause. If you believe the Universe existed forever, then you must not know how the Law of Thermodynamics works- namely that processes in a closed system reaches for equilibrium; if infinite, the universe would've ran out of energy long ago. Since the universe can't cause itself, then the cause must be beyond the Universe, beyond space, time, immaterial, eternal, and powerful. Much better than an egg or whatever it is they believe in eastern religions.

The law of thermaodynamics state that matter and energy can neither be created or destroyed only transform so by that logic the Universe existed forever its only the current iteration of the Universe that hasn't. Secondly energy and matter doesn't just disappear because there is nowhere for them to go they just cycle back and forth from usable to unusable. There is no need to invoke God.

[Belhi]

I think you guys are seriously overthinking this. Again, its elements within the church, not the church itself that is portrayed as really evil unless you believe the Archbishop = the church. There are people constantly evoking Halone throughout HW and even before. Ishgard, particularly among the noble houses, is a very pious place.

Honestly your really getting off topic if your arguing real world religions and even trying to bring Physics in to it. This is particularly relevant since one thing that advanced physics teaches us is how flawed our understanding of the universe is and due to the limitations of our intellect and ability to perceive how it may always be, particularly on a cosmic scale.

[Cilia]

I realized I never addressed the original question, so here goes.

In some notable Final Fantasy titles, there's a heavy-handed theme that basically tells us that organized religion is evil and should be destroyed. I've looked around, and I cannot really see the justification for what essentially is anti-religion in the games.

...

Why does Square-Enix consistently portray organized religion as evil? To their credit, in FFXIV, belief in gods itself is not criticized, but when people get together to organize their religion and to establish rules that codify what their members believe in, suddenly, it's always looked at with suspicion, as if founders of organized religion are evil merely because they have power and support by people who trust in them, and not because they genuinely follow the truth.

I wouldn't say Final Fantasy is anti-religion. It leaves faith as a pretty open-ended thing, as most games do not really have any religious themes. There's occasional imagery, but the first game to deal with a corrupt organized religion was X, which was heavily Japanese-based (unless you want to count Kefka's cult).

II first brought on the religion by having the Emperor return from Hell, dragging the palace of Hell with him in the process. A novelization specifically states that he killed Satan to take it over, I believe. His "light" side goes to Heaven when killed, and also takes that over. Despite this, I don't believe there's any organized religion discussed or brought up in the game (never played it myself, to be honest).

VI has a significant amount of religious imagery, with the Warring Triad appearing to be some sort of angel paired with a couple demonic beings. Kefka's final form has a number of angelic, godlike motifs, but as identified earlier there's not really a religion based on either; just an old legend in regards to the Triad, and a crazy suicidal cult that worships Kefka.

VII is really heavy with the religious imagery, but there's nothing in the way of an organized religion. Aerith has a church in the slums nobody seems to visit, and there's no churches elsewhere. Jenova takes her name from a Hebrew word for God, but is pretty much the opposite. Sephiroth has a lot of religious imagery, from his name to his final form, Safer (Seraphim) Sephiroth, but is just as big a megalomaniac as Kefka before him (and, aside from lingering as a ghost in the Lifestream, isn't even as successful).

IX has some churches, but the religion of neither Gaia nor Terra is explored; Gaia's religion just doesn't come up, and the Terrans are so scientifically advanced they understand how to control the cycle of souls, so science has probably completely supplanted religion (not that it matters anyway, since there are no living Terrans).

X is the first main series game to deal with organized religion head-on, and it's Japanese based. After IX's heavy European influence, they wanted to go with a more Eastern theme in X. We all know how that game played out (I think), so you can't just say they're attacking Christianity.

XII treats the Kiltia as a positive force, though their leader is killed not long after his introduction.

XIII is just... a mess. The people collectively worship the fal'Cie of Cocoon though the Sanctum, but the Primarch is a fal'Cie himself, who hates humans, because... blah blah blah it's complicated. (If there's one reason I couldn't get into and finish XIII, it's because the backstory is so [kupo]ing complicated and takes so much reading.)

XIV isn't anti-religion in the slightest. While the higher-ups of the Holy See are corrupt, belief in Halone is never treated as a bad thing; it's the abuse of power that makes them evil.

... which is really what it's about, abuse of power. Anyone with power can abuse it, and religious authority figures just make easy villains because that which they derive said authority from cannot be proven. Anyone who goes against them can be declared a heretic or apostate or whatever, and because what they derive their laws from is faith-based, it's difficult to contest. After discovering Yevon is a sham in X Yuna's party is declared a group of heretics and hunted accordingly; Alphinaud and Tataru are both accused of heresy and are only saved by our sheer badassitude and the fact the Holy See is gracious enough to provide a trial by combat to prove innocence. (Plus there's the whole dropping accused heretics down a cliff, where if you die it's because you're a heretic, and if you live it's because you were saved by dragons... and are therefore a heretic.) It's never the institution of the Holy See we come into conflict with, but rather its leader, who is abusing his power for his own ends.

People in positions of power are wont to abuse that power. It's just human nature.

[jomoru]

In the grand scheme of things there is no good or evil, only reason we have such perceptions is how our society is currently built, you would be a fool to assume it couldn't possibly change to something you or I would perceive as 'wrong' or that the world is black and white. Fairness isn't real either.

In the grand scheme of things there are things that exist and things that do not. The Garlean "Point" is based on things that do not exist. Therefore they are objectively wrong.

[IoannesBellator]

I realized I never addressed the original question, so here goes.

How are you able to exceed the character limit? Some sort of Limit Break? I've had to post several times to get things across and it can get frustrating. But anyway, I've grown weary of this topic, so here's my ultimate reply: "Okay, whatever." People will continue to believe whatever they want to believe. Still angry tho. You can't deny that if you take away religion, the only thing left will be the self-centered narcissism that makes people think they're special snowflakes, and the strongest and smartest snowflakes can bully others if they're charismatic, influential, and powerful enough to make other people behave and think the way they want. And you don't even need a fancy hat for it not even objective moral obligations, just your unshakable faith in yourself.

[CyrilLucifer]

How are you able to exceed the character limit? Some sort of Limit Break? I've had to post several times to get things across and it can get frustrating.

Edit your post to exceed the character limit.

[Dalvy]

FF12 does fall into the usual pitfall of "Gods are bad, humans should follow their own path". The Occuria are responsible for the Espers and almost leading Ashe away from her vengeance quest. Ashe destroys them in response to messing with her mind.

Venat was an aberrant Occuria that led Vayne through his journey to dictatorship, corrupting Cid Bunansa and destroying Archadia's military supremacy in the process. Dr. Cid is particularly driven mad by Venat. Its reasoning was that the other Occuria are old fashioned. Towards the end of the game Vayne turns on Venat, and I recall the dialogue being about how man should choose their own path.

I do get the sense that FF is a bit anti-organized religion and that if gods are tangible, they are always having a negative impact on human lives. Yu Yevon, the thing at the end of FF9, the Warring Triad, Cloud of Darkness, etc. Even Hydaelyn doesn't feel like a happy goddess to me, even though she is half of the Dualism concept.

This is reminiscent of animism where you must pay tribute to local spirits or suffer. This animism is present in some games where the summons or a powerful pantheon are a focal point, and people still come to ruin despite following protocol. I can't recall there ever being a truly benevolent god or higher power.

[Delily]

Because not all religions are the same. The First Cause isn't a fallacy by any means, see where you'd think that it would because of my borderline conflation of Platonic First Cause/Demiurge with the Judeo-Christian God.

You're correct it's not. The fallacy is when you jump from the first cause into the cosmological argument.

And for the record, before anyone accuses Catholicism of the cause of all wars ever, Buddhism and Hinduism aren't some ideal, peace-loving religions. Just ask the Muslims in Burma/Myanmar how their Buddhist neighbors treat them as well as the treatment of Christians by Hindus at Orissa. And I'd think we're all justified at some level- coexistence is a lie. I myself would quickly grab a but I can gun if a Crusade is ever called- but then again, what's the likeliness of Pope Francis ever doing that, or even regular Catholics doing it?

The irony is thick with this one. You say you do not see the justification for anti-religious sentiments, then you go onto mention 2 examples of why religion is viewed with suspicion.