NIN's It's time to stand up

[RapBreon]

-snip-

This happens in all MMOs due to perfect balance being essentially impossible. Most insanely competitive people (I am somewhat guilty) either; wait for a buff/quit or reroll.

NIN's position in the melee pecking order was fairly established before ESOs, I can only presume you either stayed NIN because you were happy with the extra utility at the cost of personal DPS, were banking on buffs (which is silly) or your friends needed a NIN.

A 'real dps mind-set' (as in a hyper competitive person like yourself) should've jumped on the FOTM bandwagon (DRG) after doing their research, so you knew what pulled the best personal numbers at the expense of all other factors. If you didn't do your research before committing to ESO gear you're getting what you deserve....an extremely viable class that sacrifices some personal DPS for TA; which makes up for the deficit so much that you edge out the TOP melee DPS's spot.

[CGMidlander]

1) Ninja do not have competitive dps in the highest current tier of raiding. I am not sure how people can argue this with the parse sites now available.

If you have a dps mentality, I mean really a dps mindset, you would not be content with never being able to win a parse, regardless of your level of play.

People will argue that ninja's are in a good spot because they were in world first clear groups. To you guys I would say that all three melee dps jobs are viable in Savage now. Only two can actually be the top dps on any of the fights though.

Your personal DPS is unimportant, if your overall contribution to raidwide DPS (Your damage + buffs) is equal or greater than the deficit relative to a stronger job.

The mindset you are describing is one with a big ego.

[Aiurily]

2) I won't argue that ninja's bring some utility, but other than trick attack, the rest are completely overrated. Goad is extremely situational now and used pretty much only in AoE situations for certain classes. Ironically ninja has just about the worst TP of any of the classes in the game. Shadewalker is situational as well, and frankly not even needed. Tanks did just fine before it existed. Granted one of its limited uses does include allowing a tank to start in dps stance. Yet with content being out geared this is completely irrelevant other than for epeen.

People will argue that ninja's are in a good spot because they were in world first clear groups. To you guys I would say that all three melee dps jobs are viable in Savage now. Only two can actually be the top dps on any of the fights though.

goad - lets ranged dps aoe first adds+boss in a1s, then possibly more depending on laser placement with the following adds. very obvious/heavy use in a2s. lets your other melee cleave handphase/adds in a3s. lets you sustain the MT in a4s, a very long fight with few breaks.

shadewalker - have you done a3s progression with a tank in dps stance vs a whm's aggro in that aoe heavy fight? nevermind that, but the fact that its very useful in progression, before you outgear content, is more than enough. just because the content may not need as much optimization as before because of gear doesn't make the skill invalid. it's still quite useful.

"top" dps vs contributed dps - if you want to epeen about being top dps purely by apparent numbers, change jobs. play ranged dps/caster in a1, smn in a2, mnk/drg in a3+a4. your contributed dps as ninja is still higher than monk, even if your single target is lower. dragoon, granted, is miles above both of them in contributed dps (2nd to mnk in single target now) but that's another subject.

if you want to argue about being competitive or having a dps mentality, don't be dumb and apply that to everyone. go be competitive about your own job's dps compared to other players playing that same job; that's much more logical and sound than complaining because the job you play isn't #1 st self dps. you'd have to start with actually clearing savage though.

[MrCookTM]

snip

This, a million times.

And if someone doesn't like the mindset of contributing high raid dps through utility while doing decent personal dps, Nin might just be the wrong job.

[Aiselia]

There are others that I have seen as well. If you have a dps mentality, I mean really a dps mindset, you would not be content with never being able to win a parse, regardless of your level of play.

That's not a "DPS mentality". That's an ego that needs to be checked.

If you have a progression mentality, I mean REALLY a progression mentality, you would be too busy going "HECK YEAH, WE KILLED IT!" to go "Well crap, I wasn't the top DPS. DO-OVER, GUYS. LET'S KILL IT AGAIN UNTIL I AM TOP."

If you have a group mentality, I mean REALLY a group mentality, you don't care if you're the top DPS, you care that you helped kill it because let's face it, without the rest of your group, it doesn't matter if your DPS is 1200 or 1500, you weren't going to kill it without them.

People with your mentality are exactly why they should never officially allow parsers.

However, despite your poor attempt to downplay that Ninjas were in the world first clear groups, it's a valid point that they were. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the people who world first cleared these things probably, just probably, have a better handle on the situation than you, and if they think NIN utility+damage combo is good enough, then it's good enough. If you think you're useless if you're not topping the DPS charts, that's a personal confusion on your part, not a fact.

Of course, by your logic, BLM, SMN, BRD and MCH should also be able to match/beat melee DPS right, because if they don't have the ability to do that and are fine with that, they don't have "the DPS mindset".

[Craiger]

That's not a "DPS mentality". That's an ego that needs to be checked.

If you have a progression mentality, I mean REALLY a progression mentality, you would be too busy going "HECK YEAH, WE KILLED IT!" to go "Well crap, I wasn't the top DPS. DO-OVER, GUYS. LET'S KILL IT AGAIN UNTIL I AM TOP."

If you have a group mentality, I mean REALLY a group mentality, you don't care if you're the top DPS, you care that you helped kill it because let's face it, without the rest of your group, it doesn't matter if your DPS is 1200 or 1500, you weren't going to kill it without them.

People with your mentality are exactly why they should never officially allow parsers.

However, despite your poor attempt to downplay that Ninjas were in the world first clear groups, it's a valid point that they were. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the people who world first cleared these things probably, just probably, have a better handle on the situation than you, and if they think NIN utility+damage combo is good enough, then it's good enough. If you think you're useless if you're not topping the DPS charts, that's a personal confusion on your part, not a fact.

Of course, by your logic, BLM, SMN, BRD and MCH should also be able to match/beat melee DPS right, because if they don't have the ability to do that and are fine with that, they don't have "the DPS mindset".

While Kaybye is completely wrong when it comes to balancing jobs, You don't have to have a big ego to care about being high on DPS parses.

I mainly use a parser to keep improving and have fun trying to push my boundaries. You can ofc set records etc with a job that have a lower DPS ceiling too, but I personally want to be up there as close to the top as possible. It's all for personal reasons, not because I have a big ego.

If NIN was my main, this could possibly be a problem for me... but, there is a big difference between a job not fulfilling your personal requirements, and a job not being good enough.

NIN is in a good spot, and if you don't like being behind on a parser, then you should simply switch to another job. It's impossible to suit everyone's need for every job...

[Aiselia]

You don't have to have a big ego to care about being high on DPS parses.

There's a difference between "being high on" and "demanding to be on the top regardless of utility brought". The difference is made painfully clear by the fact that they use the phrase "win a parse". You know what that phrase means, "win a parse"? It means "I care more about beating everyone else in my group than I do about actually winning the fight." Nobody who ever has thought that they could "win a parse" has not had a big ego, because the fights are not a contest against the rest of your group. It's a contest WITH the rest of your group AGAINST what you're fighting. By wanting to "win a parse", you're making up some competition simply to feed your ego. If you really want to show how great you are against other players, that's what PVP is for. PVE is not PVPVE.

It's one thing to want to do the best you can in the confines of the game's balance, it's another thing to demand that the balance be redone simply because you want the top numbers but didn't think to play the class with the top numbers.

If someone is more concerned with their numbers not being the biggest over the fact that they just killed something with the NECESSARY help of 3/7/23 other people, then yes, it's an ego problem. That mentality is the exact reason why I left WoW, and is the exact reason why I am happy they don't officially allow parsers.

[Hakmatic]

My dps isn't the highest so I'm going qq all day. People are the forums kill me.

[ShanaShirayuki]

and is the exact reason why I am happy they don't officially allow parsers.

Then you get people who don't know the limits of their class and the exact numbers they can push in a fight, leading to woes on fights with DPS checks such as BisEX. Sure the potential for harassment is there, but an official personal parser would prevent that from happening. The training dummy thing will help somewhat but it'll be in a vacuum, not during an actual fight.

[Craiger]

There's a difference between "being high on" and "demanding to be on the top regardless of utility brought". The difference is made painfully clear by the fact that they use the phrase "win a parse". You know what that phrase means, "win a parse"? It means "I care more about beating everyone else in my group than I do about actually winning the fight." Nobody who ever has thought that they could "win a parse" has not had a big ego, because the fights are not a contest against the rest of your group. It's a contest WITH the rest of your group AGAINST what you're fighting. By wanting to "win a parse", you're making up some competition simply to feed your ego. If you really want to show how great you are against other players, that's what PVP is for. PVE is not PVPVE.

It's one thing to want to do the best you can in the confines of the game's balance, it's another thing to demand that the balance be redone simply because you want the top numbers but didn't think to play the class with the top numbers.

If someone is more concerned with their numbers not being the biggest over the fact that they just killed something with the NECESSARY help of 3/7/23 other people, then yes, it's an ego problem. That mentality is the exact reason why I left WoW, and is the exact reason why I am happy they don't officially allow parsers.

You're absolutely right, didn't really pay attention to the part about "winning the parse", which is a ego problem.

Just thought I would make it clear about using a parser and trying to get the highest numbers possible, not necessarily being the same as having a big ego.

Parsers can be used for bad things, but IMO there are a lot more positive things about them, which is what I'm trying to get across. If for example someone isn't letting you join as NIN because they think your job isn't doing enough DPS, then you're probably better off anyways, because they're stupid and don't know anything about the game... So even if parsers are used like that, it only acts as a tool to find out which players are idiots anyways...