Religion is bad, M'kay?

[Kaiser-Ace]

Well, personally, Divine Right doesnt sit well with me no matter who claims it.

Neither does "Divine Bloodlines" for much of the same reasons. So I guess i'm anti-Japenese eh?

No, I just recognize that those tend to be go to answers for incompetent rulers who can't otherwise justify rule.

Richard Cor de Leon didn't need to convence his people that he was a good king, they believed it all on their own.

So, this.misunderstanding is part cultural diffrences and mostly biased opposition infavor of one's own sect.

I guess as a Protostant American, "God Kings" and "Divine Apointment" just dont sit well with me. As opposition towards The Orthodoxy's system seems to rub you the wrong way.

I have no problem as I'm nutralist in it all IRL and in game.... I'd have sided with Gaius and Garlemauld in the Pretorium.

[Sapphic]

Because Religion is evil. Just not everyone realises it yet.

Because Religion plays on the most primal fear, the fear of death. Do this and it is all roses and chocolates in the after life, do this and it's all fire and brimstone. Using fear as method of control.

Fear and a common enemy are the staples of controlling the populace, Thordan did that with the Dragons.

[jomoru]

The theme isn't that religion is bad, but that religious people are rubes who don't understand what they're perpetuating. If you look at the events of the game and the history you uncover, that should be obvious (and personally, it's a narrative that is very, very believable).

The 12 are treated as legitimate. Gridania is even more an open theocracy than Ishgard(at least it also has noble houses!). The Church of Nald'thal sits on the Syndicate Council and the head of it just steps in and treats the sides in the Uldah issue like bickering children and solves it. A Church provided sanctuary for Cid for 5 years and even helped him regain his memories.

But Hey why notice that when you can casually assume that Catholicism is the only possible religion that exists!

And for everyone trying to say this game is pushing an Atheist message. The two main antagonists in this game over the long Haul are the Ascians and the Garleans. The Garleans are the only nation on the planet that are explicitly Atheists. They are not treated as some misguided good guys. They are treated explicitly as what they are a Totalitarian Empire of bastards. They commit Genocide. They have a strict Caste System! And they are going to keep doing horrible things until they stop publishing ff 14, when this expansion is but a memory Garleans will still be commiting atrocities.

Now lets look at who they try to Emulate. the Allag. They seem to go from being Sunworshipers to outlawing all religion and nearly destroying the world.

Now lets look at what we learned about Primals in the MSQ. They are litterally just creations of Aether. They are not what they are summoned as. They are the worst aspects of a faith litterally given form. They are flaws and lies made manifest. Not Gods who walk the earth.

So maybe things are a bit more even handed on the issues of faith and religion but the presentation is that PEOPLE are flawed. People do stupid and bad things. People are manipulated by their greed and ignorance.

[jomoru]

I have no problem as I'm nutralist in it all IRL and in game.... I'd have sided with Gaius and Garlemauld in the Pretorium.

So you'd have litterally sided with Facist genocidal madmen. The reason you can't side with him is He's objectively WRONG.

[Kaiser-Ace]

So you'd have litterally sided with Facist genocidal madmen. The reason you can't side with him is He's objectively WRONG.

Actually, Gaius had valid points. The Primals, The Twelve, The True Eikons, they all have remarkable similarities that it's hard not to question if what he said was right. I may have even sided with Elidibues if given the opportunity because I'm not a one dimensional "Good Guy". Even IRL I describe my self as Chaotic Good.

Also, fun fact, Fascism is a belief in Nationalism, Militarism, and National Self Sufficiency. Totalitarianism is not necessarily an aspect of Fascism while Socialism and Marxist Communism are the exact opposites of it. If Capitalism is the Right Wing and Socialism is the Left Wing then Fascism is the Far Right while Marxist Communism is the Far Left.

I'm a self described Chaotic Good, Fascist, that does indeed believe in social darwinism because capitalism doesn't work without it. Why Fascism is associated with the Nazis I'll never know since they were Socialists and, as stated before, the opposite of fascists.

But now we're getting into the real world's issues and ergo breaking The MMO Creed, so I'll leave it where it sits and move on.

Now how we're we comparing Ishguard to modern corruption again?

[VargasVermillion]

I heard there was some cultural reason behind this. Doesn't matter anyway, story is story and you can't deny these thoughts on religion or cults have merit if you look throughout history.

[VargasVermillion]

So you'd have litterally sided with Facist genocidal madmen. The reason you can't side with him is He's objectively WRONG.

'objectively wrong'? not really, there's no such thing in politics. It all depends on perspective. Garleans do have a reason for their primal hatred and it's because they are slowly destroying the world by existing so they've chosen to remove the problem permanently and it is a solution, it's just whether or not you're willing to do so is a matter of perspective.

[Eisen-Zorn]

The 12 are treated as legitimate. Gridania is even more an open theocracy than Ishgard(at least it also has noble houses!). The Church of Nald'thal sits on the Syndicate Council and the head of it just steps in and treats the sides in the Uldah issue like bickering children and solves it. A Church provided sanctuary for Cid for 5 years and even helped him regain his memories.

But Hey why notice that when you can casually assume that Catholicism is the only possible religion that exists!

And for everyone trying to say this game is pushing an Atheist message. The two main antagonists in this game over the long Haul are the Ascians and the Garleans. The Garleans are the only nation on the planet that are explicitly Atheists. They are not treated as some misguided good guys. They are treated explicitly as what they are a Totalitarian Empire of bastards. They commit Genocide. They have a strict Caste System! And they are going to keep doing horrible things until they stop publishing ff 14, when this expansion is but a memory Garleans will still be commiting atrocities.

Now lets look at who they try to Emulate. the Allag. They seem to go from being Sunworshipers to outlawing all religion and nearly destroying the world.

Now lets look at what we learned about Primals in the MSQ. They are litterally just creations of Aether. They are not what they are summoned as. They are the worst aspects of a faith litterally given form. They are flaws and lies made manifest. Not Gods who walk the earth.

So maybe things are a bit more even handed on the issues of faith and religion but the presentation is that PEOPLE are flawed. People do stupid and bad things. People are manipulated by their greed and ignorance.

All of this. Someone gets it.

[Dererk]

This is why I don't read into fiction too much I'm just here for the ride. Why can't we just enjoy story's for the sake of the story why do we have to tear it apart to find a meaning that may not even be there or that the author didn't intently intend to put in.

There now that that's out of the way it's not that religion is evil or wrong its when people use it to justify what they do.


Its for the greater good sir ( pushes nameless person ( I'm not gona bother coming up with a name.) off a cliff .......ok he didn't turn he's innocent well had to be sure. OK NEXT.)

[jomoru]

snip

There totally is objective truth in reality and even in fiction. You can claim its political differences but when someone shouts the Sky is red and its my opinion you can't question it. They are wrong. The Garleans don't hunt down Primal summoners, Eikon worshipers to save the world. They want to conquer the world and use the "primitives don't know what they are doing" as moral justification.

And its not even true. Did the Domans summon a primal? No. The Garleans are just a bunch of self righteous conquerors. Gaius claims his nation is fair. Read over the caste system they fall under as described in the library. The Garlean nation isn't fair or just. Its cruelly regulated and uses up foreigners as second class citizens. Yeah he had a pet Roe who's so happy he could get above being used as a second class citizen he started preaching Gaius' fairness.

We also know that Primals exist independent of the Real thing. This is hammered Home by the MSQ. Shiva's soul sits with her beloved no matter how hard the Heretics tried. There was a Real Bahamut and his Summoning just created a murderous copy that was not the Dragon returned. SO yeah we know the Garleans are wrong about metaphysics.

Saying "maybe the Garleans have a point" is on par with saying "maybe the Ascians have a point" or even better "Maybe the Cloud of Darkness had a point" their point is just self serving lies for their horrific actions.