To all the flames on primal datacenter...

[RiceisNice]

...

And this mentality of "if I'm going down, I'm taking you with me" is encouraged by the format of the game, as well as what second place actually means. It's always the best tactic to go after the team in first (or the team that has two node spawns at the beginning) to either get more points, or bleed them down so the game prolongs for a better chance at you getting second (or even first). The thing is, second place means absolutely nothing; it doesn't give comparatively that more exp in context how much you need per rank, and it counts as nothing toward achievements

[Dimitrii]

And this mentality of "if I'm going down, I'm taking you with me" is encouraged by the format of the game, as well as what second place actually means.

Luckily as maelstrom I dont see this type of thinking too much. We usually always aim to win and make no real distinction between 2nd and 3rd. Even when the last place team is hounding us for no apparent reason, while we are in second, alot of us in the GC will continue to implore the alliance to not get dragged down to that level or give into that mentality and keep trying to get first. However once the spawn camping starts all bets are off since most people take extreme offense to that tactic and it often results in a relentless assault on the GC that tried it (even if its just one party independently trying to provoke another GC) and can even rage into the next immediate matches.

Anyway attacking a GC in first or that has 2 nodes via a pincer is understandable and (because of the way the mode is designed) is something you have no choice but to accept is gonna happen periodically. Its the tunnel visioning with no other intention than just screwing a specific GC that has ppl frustrated with this mode. I don't recall secure ever being this bad in this respect.

[Februs]

Luckily as maelstrom I dont see this type of thinking too much. We usually always aim to win and make no real distinction between 2nd and 3rd.

I see similar reasoning in my matches with the Flames, though with much more defeatist attitudes.

Basically, it comes down to we're either winning or losing, that's it. No one really seems to distinguish between 2nd or 3rd, only 1st or lost. If the Flames settle on pincering a team, in my experience, they usually aim for the 1st place team regardless of what position we're in. There are only two exceptions to this.

The 1st, is that RNGsus decides for us. Sometimes the way the nodes spawn simply pit you against one team or the other, and moving on the other team, regardless of if it's better decision, is either far more difficult because of node positions or simply plain stupid, because it would require putting yourself in a bad tactical spot that's difficult to hold or retreat from, or maybe it just risks too much by opening your flank and suddenly making your GC the target of a pincer instead of the aggressors.

The 2nd is because of a justified grudge. 99% of the times I've seen Flames pursue attacking a GC despite all logic telling them not to, it is because that GC asked for it by going above and beyond to piss off the Flames. Spawn camping is the number one reason for this. If you pushed us back to our spawn and then held us there while the 3rd GC has free roam of the map, as you said, all bets are off. Even after we've chased you off of our spawn you can expect us to continue chasing you off of every node you get, regardless of if it's a good idea for our team. This can happen for other reasons, simple tunnel vision being one of them, but spawn camps (even if it's by a small number of people) are the biggest cause.

There's no logic behind it, and it's not a conscious decision. I've never seen someone deliberately say, "hey, lets aim for 2nd." They might point out that we're most definitely going to get 2nd, but no one cares. It's 1st, or lost... For a good team, that's a strong motivation to keep trying, but, sadly, that same distinction tends to lead a lot of flames to simply giving up on a round and going idle. We have a lot of defeatists.

[Streetmajor]

Adders have been absolute crap this entire week, bad enough that my winrates's dipped below 30% out of 32 matches so far. Most of the wins (and this is throughout the day) I see usually go to the way of maelstrom. What I have noticed is that I see a lot of people on adders that nowadays that they are much more frequent to disregard my calls or to outright complain about it and proceed to 0/6.

Second place forever pointless, the exp difference isn't even that much.

Let's not forget the player that complains the whole match, makes bad calls and finishes with damage numbers ranging from all 0's to barely into the 1000s.

[Zensho]

North spawn is savage mode FL, everyone gets spawned camped, just take it with a grain of salt.

[C00KIE_M0N57R]

Ultros Clean Up Crew has most of the flame premades on primal. Unfortunately, the GC only follows directions a portion of the time or follows directions from poor strategists. As the GC with the least dedicated pvp population, is hard to break that, "Gonna smash 1st gc that touches us" mentality. I can only think of three appropriate leaders who consistently make quality calls off hand... makes it rough.

My experiences with this ultros group is rather bad. They rudely disregard call outs from from other people in the alliance and run straight to enemy territory to fight needlessly. It usually results with people who don't know what they are doing following them and, one, leads to them getting killed and feeding points, and two, leaves nodes under defended and prone to being taken by the other team.

[Februs]

My experiences with this ultros group is rather bad. They rudely disregard call outs from from other people in the alliance and run straight to enemy territory to fight needlessly. It usually results with people who don't know what they are doing following them and, one, leads to them getting killed and feeding points, and two, leaves nodes under defended and prone to being taken by the other team.

I've had mixed results with the Ultros crew. At first, I thought they were total crap, but, after running in their group a few times, I've come to understand that they just have a very unorthodox method of playing this game mode that requires very specific conditions and all 24 people in the Alliance to follow it. The Ultros crew that I've seen demands the utmost aggressive style of gameplay. Zero defense. The team runs a type of Death train form one node to the next (non-discriminatory as for who is the target) with a select few rules.

Rule one: keep moving. If the train stops or gets bogged down, you start to bleed points instead of win points. Rule two: zerg targets. No solo dps. No one strays from the train, even at the expense of the node. You never turn around, and you never defend. It's run on the logic that it only takes one person to cap a node, not 8. So, only one person has to branch off and cap. After that, they absolutely must return to the group. The train never stops. Don't get left behind. The reason for this, is the cardinal rule. Rule 3, the purpose of the 24 man death train is to create as much death as possible. Your target is not actually the nodes. You cap them, of course, when you get the opportunity, but they are not the goal. The goal is to soak the ground with as much enemy blood as possible. The idea is that you win the game by stealing points, not by passively letting them accumulate through node captures.

Most people find this style of gameplay to be extremely counter-intuitive, and actively oppose it, but, I can say from experience, that it does work if the team commits to the plan. They way I've seen it happen, ever match tends to go the same way. When you start the match, you almost always begin by falling behind. There's less points to steal. The first charge is always the most brutal (enemy ranks are strong, and everyone is buffed), and you're actively abandoning your own nodes, so they can be back capped quite easily. However, after the first set of nodes (usually by set 2 or 3) you start to make up the point difference. By the halfway point you're suddenly in the lead. By the end, your group usually has enough battle highs/fevers (practically everyone) that you're literally steamrolling enemies with ease and winning by a 400pt lead. The first time I saw it I thought that it was a fluke. After 5 straight wins going the exact same way, I realized that it's not a fluke, it just works that way.

Tl;DR The ultros method works if, and only if 1) the whole team commits to it. No indecision, and no losing your backbone. 2, you have a strong enough team make up to support it (good balance of healers/dps), and 3, you absolutely cannot stop moving. The train must go forwards. Kill quickly and move on. It doesn't matter what colour the enemy ahead of you is. Kill em. Stopping or slowing is death.

[Vaeria]

One lala's junk is another roe's treasure ~tee he he~

Label me a fool, baddie, pvp noob, w/e..could care less. But you flames don't know how sweet you've got it. And after reading these posts and confirming everything I've been suspecting about the flames dilemma, honestly..I can't WAIT to jump to flames.

Got 50 on Mael then switched to adders to try finishing up rank. Couldn't do it (disgusted with adders overall playstyle/ tactics in general from secure-slaughter, no better here) and switched back, only to find that Mael's been infected with the same playitsafe-do-NOT-be 1st-to engage mentality. I understand very well the need for caution and practical tactics but hearing EVERY godforsakken round: "DO NoT engage! Back away! Let x fight y first before we go in"/let's pincer/ take the absolute safest node" has made me sick to my stomach of both mael and adders. "But Vae! That's how joo win games!" Welp..there lies the problem.

I guess the greater majority of posts here are for/from people who actually care about winning in Seiz to begin with (as if doing such was even remotely a reflection of personal skill) But thats completely fine and easy enough to fix. Just switch to Mael/Adders and rank up over night. Whoopie. If thats genuinely all it takes to satisfy your PvP urges, all is well. Really it baffles the hell outta me why there are so many complaints on here about Primal flames. Guessing they're either from people who are just too damn lazy to switch or are pathetically hopeful that the flames playstyle will someday alter itself. Curious.

That being said..few things to point out. Perhaps it all, in the end, boils down to what your personal definition of enjoyable pvp really is but:
1.- flames stays engaged nearly 100% of the match. While the 'free ride' team's off at a safe comfy distant node, its members twiddling their fingers and becoming one with nature, flames are busy slugging it out with the less fortunate gc (dunno how many times while on both aders and Mael, I actually prayed we got bad rng luck just so we COULD fight. Flames does not have this problem.)

2. spawncamping. Flames is NOTORIOUS for doing this. And why? Because its the funnest thing to do in pvp hands down. Its an undeniable, deliciously sadistic pleasure to royally teabag that innocent, sweet lala healer right at her place of rebirth...especially after knowing she had a hand in healing the group that just pincered yours. Oh.and here comes that smn/blm duo that think they'll slip away quietly w/o notice after respawn. <insert famous MK-Scorpion line> Now tell auntie Vae you didn't just get a hard-on. Yes, yes you did, DIDN'T you? ...<3

3. Extended harrassment- Once you're on flames badside, you're entitled to be their unwillingly submissive lover the rest of match. But as a flame? This means for the next 7 minutes, you can divert all focus from the other team and focus on the current one. Round 2 and 3 with that drg you just scrapped with. Sweet revenge against mch who just BtEd you after getting bailed out at 2% from his healer. Tunnel vision you say? Indeed...but between that..and...*gasp*..new nodes....hmm..

See..flamelife is awesome. >_>

[C00KIE_M0N57R]

The greatest strength of that method is also its weakness. I've encountered other teams who have tried that "all offensive" tactic and it is easy to out do. Since the main objective of the strategy is to get as many battle highs and battle fevers in the alliance as possible, it leaves their entire alliance visible on the map; one could easily see where the train of death is going. Alliances can can easily kite around the mob of battle highs and fevers, or simply avoid them. It is very similar to a strategies in wolves den where all offensive groups get kited around indefinitely. Any node they take will almost always be taken by an enemy team since it is left unguarded. Additionally, since this method relies almost entirely on kills, simply not getting enough kills can result in a loss.

[adn]

I've had mixed results with Ultros premades as well. I play Flames on my WHM alt and in some games their hyperaggressive strategy works but if the enemies have any kind of coordinated map control going on it just doesn't work at all. But yeah, as has been pointed out, their strategy requires "all in" from the people who aren't in their premade for it to really work.

As for Flames in general... Some days there's really good communication, people making calls on what to do, and then some games it just feels like nobody even cares what happens (tomestone farmers...?)