Question about LV50 Dark Knight quest *Spoilers*

[Fenral]

Funny enough, deconstructing the "epic hero" archetype started back with VII's Cloud before fanon turned him into an angsty brooding loner. 2.x was a reconstruction of that archetype on the surface in regards to the PC, but the DRK 30-50 line takes the archetype and rips it to shreds, showing just how little self-worth someone like the Warrior of Light probably has (even after the shadow offers to set you free, the Warrior of Light chooses to remain everyone's "Weapon of Light" because, arguably, it's the only worth they find in themselves).

Uh, Tales of Phantasia would like to have words with you (granted that was more of a final knife twist than a full deconstruction, and even then not the first), but you're more or less correct about how, in-series, hero deconstructing started with VII. I certainly would never try to imply that FF14's writers haven't played any Final Fantasy beyond FF1 up to Matoya's Cave, FF3 up to the end of the Floating Continent, and the World of Balance arc of FF6, because that would just be a cheap shot. XIV doesn't really count as a reconstruction of anything, because aside from the DRK storyline, any obviously unfortunate implications are either handwaved or ignored entirely. A reconstruction only happens when those implications are faced head-on and addressed properly.

Can't comment on NPCs, because that's up to their character, who I don't write.

2.0 lived and (violently) died by the idea that NPCs exist solely to reflect an image onto the player. They may have had a complicated childhood, burgeoning powers they barely understand, be your only link to a shadowy organization that surely can't be totally irrelevant to the ongoing plot, or even a fellow chosen one, but none of that actually matters. Even if Minfilia's every (in)action negates what characterization she's been given, what matters is that you understand your role in shaping the future, and that someone with strictly informed importance is telling you how important you are.

3.0 is all about how there's a better way, and that NPCs can be more than just people who order you around. Arguably it needed 2.0 in order to enhance the contrast, but ultimately, those same people who proved to you that they, too, could do things on their own were rewarded by a half half dozen oddly-shaped bridges falling on them simply to ensure that, when the dust settles, you are still the only one left capable of doing anything positive for anyone.

So we're still stuck as the one and only hero, but they're trying. I think.

[Cilia]

So we're still stuck as the one and only hero, but they're trying. I think.

Pedantic argument over what JRPG was the first deconsctruction aside (Phantasia doesn't wholly count in my book because it's a straight hero story up to the ending, you just fought a bad guy with understandable and noble intentions if not methods), I said 2.0 was a reconstruction because it acknowledges that the world is crap but there's still a hero who will fight for what's right a la the Captain America movie. Just my personal interpretation.

Anyway, I'm not entirely sure we are the hero. None of the stories in the game, none of them, are about us except the DRK 30-50 line. 2.0? Resolving a Garlean threat with the Alliance. 3.0? Ending the Dragonsong War (it's about Ishgard and the Dravanians).

Jobs? Just the ones I've done...
LNC: Foulques dealing with racism and guilt (ends tragically).
DRG: Estinien trying to overcome his fear.
ACN: Helping K'lyhia get over her PTSD from being enslaved by Doesmaga.
SCH: Learning about Nymian history and culture.
SMN: Helping Y'mhitra relearn lost Allagan summoning arts, and watching Tristan fall into darkness.
ROG: Getting Miala to realize the Rogues' Guild is the Limsan MI6, not a gang of thugs.
NIN: Doman culture, as well as Oboro becoming less stuck in dogma.
GLA: The complicated relationship between Mylla, Aldis, and Leavold.
MCH: Getting Ishgard to accept machinistry as a viable war asset (especially House Dzmael, was it?).
DRK (50-60): The negative impact of dogma (as if we need more evidence of this), as well as what it truly means to care for someone.

I'd argue we're only sort of the hero in 2.0; the protagonist role was shuffled around depending on where you were. The starter arc had you as the hero, the Ul'dah arc was mostly Thancred and a little more exposition, the Limsa arc was Y'shtola (you were just muscle), the Coerthas arc was (re)introducing Cid and Alphinaud, and Operation Archon was reuniting the Grand Alliance and exploring Gaius. 2.x was largely about political strife in Ul'dah. The Crystal Tower was about G'raha and some of the history of Allag. 3.0 is, once again, resolving the Dragonsong War. We're always just muscle, something our shadow gladly points out during the 50 quest (s/he calls us "[everyone's] Weapon of Light").

We're just an unstoppable force. The story's not really about us, our character. Except the DRK 30-50 line.

[MilesSaintboroguh]

What do you suggest could be done about this?

[Fenral]

We're just an unstoppable force. The story's not really about us, our character. Except the DRK 30-50 line.

I know you've said before that you don't raid, but please, at some point, somehow, do the Binding Coil story (a 5-man group at level 60 is more than enough now). The "meaning" of the Warrior of Light is explored in more detail there than in any other story in the game, so why they locked it behind 11 stupidly difficult raid bosses (and two puzzle floors) is simply baffling. It causes me great pain to say it, but what the Crystal Tower attempted to do with G'raha is only an uninspired knockoff what was actually achieved with Alisaie's character arc. I'm still unsure if the ironic echo was intentional or not. (I do still love G'raha, but only because I believe he still has his own unrealized potential.)

[Cilia]

What do you suggest could be done about this?

The problem is... nothing really can be done about it. The Warrior of Light is a silent protagonist to further sell the "blank slate" on which every player can project their personality. Since the WoL has to be a blank slate, s/he can't really have a personality, so s/he can't be the central character of the storyline.

DRK 30-50 is a special case because it deals with stress common to every PC. Otherwise, there's no way to tell how X PC would deal with the situation, so we have to be a blank, faceless "white soldier."

I know you've said before that you don't raid, but please, at some point, somehow, do the Binding Coil story (a 5-man group at level 60 is more than enough now). The "meaning" of the Warrior of Light is explored in more detail there than in any other story in the game, so why they locked it behind 11 stupidly difficult raid bosses (and two puzzle floors) is simply baffling.

While I don't raid, I have watched most of the important Coil cutscenes. What I got from the Coil cutscenes is, again, you are the stoic badass who can endure anything, even striking down the sage-hero (that may very well be your mentor) who saved the world from untold ruin and continuing to shoulder the burden of being "Eorzea's hope." That's the only thing it really said about the Warrior of the Light - the rest was about Alisae, though Nael was touched on in the Second Coil and Alphinaud and Louisoix became more important in the Final Coil.

Louisoix spares you a few words and entrusts you with the task of being "Eorzea's hope," but besides that and as muscle to kill stuff you can be taken out and the story could continue.

The DRK 30-50 quest explores your suffering. Your inner conflict. Your sorrow. Your despair. Your desire. We wear the mask of "Eorzea's hope" and fight the battles no one else can or will, but beneath the mask of "Eorzea's hope" we're struggling and suffering. Nothing else in the game acknowledges this. Every other story in the game can happen without the Warrior of Light because they exist to make others' wishes come true; we are, in essence, the savior everyone wants, not a flawed person with desires of their own. The line in question is the only one that denies "Eorzea's hope" is our true character and deals with the Warrior of Light's selfish wish - to be freed of the endless cycle of conflict and suffering.

[Fenral]

The problem is... nothing really can be done about it. The Warrior of Light is a silent protagonist to further sell the "blank slate" on which every player can project their personality. Since the WoL has to be a blank slate, s/he can't really have a personality, so s/he can't be the central character of the storyline.

And Final Fantasy (the first one) says "hi." Even if your role is to be the hired muscle, the fact remains that the plot can't advance without you being there. G'raha even has a line to that effect when you go to Syrcus Tower with Unei and Doga.

The line in question is the only one that denies "Eorzea's hope" is our true character and deals with the Warrior of Light's selfish wish - to be freed of the endless cycle of conflict and suffering.

And that's why FFXIV can never be a reconstruction of the epic hero archetype. It may try to tease the possibility of more complex notions of good and evil, but ultimately our "good" is still "objectively good," and deviating from that is "selfish." Until they do something with it later, the great weakness of CT's finale is that, as soon as "the ancient's wish" became known, rather than actually stop and weigh that wish against the Tower's troubled history, G'raha's own desires, or the good he can do with that knowledge in the present, the "decision" is made offscreen. His "sacrifice" is simply presented as the only correct choice, and not even a choice at all, as nobody in the party is capable of disagreeing with notions the writers perceive as "objective good." We're stuck in a story that tries to have moral grey areas, but refuses to relinquish its objective morality, instead either ignoring contradictions or discrediting them.

I'm currently of the opinion that "Hydaelyn's Champion" would probably have let Yuna go through with the Final Summoning, as its benefit to the majority was obvious enough that no further discussion was really needed ("10 years of peace for the price of one weepy doormat? Sold!"). Of course we'd always remember her and the beautiful sacrifice she made, and we'd live on to honor that memory in the world she made at the cost of her life.

I brought up Tales of Phantasia because, for its time, it cared to posit that even actions that seem like they benefit everyone are still a product of a protagonist-centric morality, just one that the majority agrees with. The Tales series since then has a good track record for accepting its protagonist-centric morality, and later Final Fantasy games as well, by accepting that even that "selfish" morality is still capable of positive change. So long as FFXIV continues to hide behind Hydaelyn's crystal skirts, however, our morality is the one "true" good before which all others must yield, no matter who tries to say otherwise. Every time Elidbus and his entirely-too-young voice show up, I hope FFXIV will start recognizing the folly of presenting its morality as absolute, but it hasn't happened yet.

I'd really love to see the branching quest outcomes from 1.X brought back at some point, even superficially. It wouldn't need to change everything ever, just give players a sense that their own decisions actually contributed to the outcome everyone would have attributed entirely to them anyway.

[MilesSaintboroguh]

I think what we're falling back on is "let us determine the outcome because WOL=us". The closest thing we're getting so far is choosing how to react or reply when prompted and that's it. Final Fantasy always had linear stories and I don't see that changing anytime soon, especially for a game like this one where simply missing out on anything because of a choice you did or did not make will generate complaining from players.

[Cilia]

And Final Fantasy (the first one) says "hi." Even if your role is to be the hired muscle, the fact remains that the plot can't advance without you being there. G'raha even has a line to that effect when you go to Syrcus Tower with Unei and Doga.

Technically true but our presence is a bit arbitrary. If you cut out the fight sequences and NPCs took initiative, there's no real need for us to be in +95% of the content. We aren't really a character, per sé, just a tool to kill whatever is in the way of the real characters. Crystal Tower, for instance, could happen completely without us if G'raha were a skilled enough fighter.

I mean, I understand why that is. (And I have played the original Final Fantasy.) It's a limitation that comes with adding MMO to the RPG. It's just... kinda annoying sometimes, especially when RPGs and Final Fantasy have mostly evolved past the "silent protagonist" archetype or at least give you a personal impetus to go on the adventure. Here you immigrate to a city-state looking to become an adventurer, and end up getting roped into being the world's savior with all that implies.

I'd really love to see the branching quest outcomes from 1.X brought back at some point, even superficially. It wouldn't need to change everything ever, just give players a sense that their own decisions actually contributed to the outcome everyone would have attributed entirely to them anyway.

The problem with that is, thus far, there is very little moral grey area. The Dragonsong War is a bit morally grey, but aside from Thordan and the Knights starting the war 1000 years ago, Ishgard's plight is portrayed entirely sympathetically. (Understandably, since everyone but the upper echelons of the Church are in the dark.) Everything we do is objectively good, since it all minimizes suffering. What NPCs do isn't up to us, and we can't object to boneheaded stunts like G'raha pulled because of the silent protagonist angle. We respect everyone's decisions because we are, again, just a tool to fulfill others' desires.

Would the Warrior of Light let Yuna go though with the Final Summoning? Probably, because we respect everyone's decisions even if they're boneheaded. At the same time we'd probably not let it end there, and embark on a long journey to find a way to defeat Sin forever in those 10 years. Expecting victory without cost is just unrealistic; even if Yuna doesn't die, Tidus does unless you get the Perfect Ending in X-2. Minimizing casualties is nice, but sometimes people have to die or sacrifice themselves for the greater good...

It's not so much that the game portrays selfishness as bad, but that selfish actions are completely unavailable. We don't have a morality. The Scions have a morality, the Alliance has a morality, Ishgard has a morality, but we're just a tool to fix their problems. Tools don't have morality. Everything we do so far has been portrayed positively, but it's not our will - it's because Hydaelyn said to do it, or because we've a debt to pay. It's Hydaelyn's morality that really needs to be questioned, because everything revolves around "Hydaelyn / Light = good, Zodiark / Darkness = bad." (Really hope Elidibus shakes up that notion sometime soon.)

The Warrior of Light still isn't able to take selfish actions, and as the DRK 50 quest suggests selfishness is bad here. (I'd like to go Dark Knight on some wenches who are essentially mugging a man in the lower area of Limsa, and steal Animus books from G'jusana since she's extorting people for tomestones, but noooooooo...)

... it's not even about having branching quest outcomes that are ultimately meaningless (that's just an illusion of choice). It's about having our character's personality influence the story, or exploring who we are beyond "Eorzea's hope" / "Hydaelyn's Champion." Which will never happen except in bits and pieces (and absolutely never affect the MSQ) because we're blank slates to be written as each player sees fit.

[Fenral]

It's just... kinda annoying sometimes, especially when RPGs and Final Fantasy have mostly evolved past the "silent protagonist" archetype or at least give you a personal impetus to go on the adventure.

The problem Final Fantasy XIV is running into is that it's trying to be a "classic" "chosen by the crystal" story, but it came out hot on the heels of Fabula Nova Crystallis, which is more or less a collection of parallel stories exploring what happens when free-thinking human beings are suddenly told that they're now taking orders from a sentient rock. Unsurprisingly, all the ones I can think of end with God dead on the floor, and for good reason.

Eldibus, for the moment, seems to exist just to trick us into thinking that we may have a shot at that sort of development, but I'm hesitant to bet against "anyone trying to convince you that the universe has any moral complexity is just playing mind games."

[Eisen-Zorn]

Technically true but our presence is a bit arbitrary. If you cut out the fight sequences and NPCs took initiative, there's no real need for us to be in +95% of the content. We aren't really a character, per sé, just a tool to kill whatever is in the way of the real characters. Crystal Tower, for instance, could happen completely without us if G'raha were a skilled enough fighter.

I mean, I understand why that is. (And I have played the original Final Fantasy.) It's a limitation that comes with adding MMO to the RPG. It's just... kinda annoying sometimes, especially when RPGs and Final Fantasy have mostly evolved past the "silent protagonist" archetype or at least give you a personal impetus to go on the adventure. Here you immigrate to a city-state looking to become an adventurer, and end up getting roped into being the world's savior with all that implies.



The problem with that is, thus far, there is very little moral grey area. The Dragonsong War is a bit morally grey, but aside from Thordan and the Knights starting the war 1000 years ago, Ishgard's plight is portrayed entirely sympathetically. (Understandably, since everyone but the upper echelons of the Church are in the dark.) Everything we do is objectively good, since it all minimizes suffering. What NPCs do isn't up to us, and we can't object to boneheaded stunts like G'raha pulled because of the silent protagonist angle. We respect everyone's decisions because we are, again, just a tool to fulfill others' desires.

Would the Warrior of Light let Yuna go though with the Final Summoning? Probably, because we respect everyone's decisions even if they're boneheaded. At the same time we'd probably not let it end there, and embark on a long journey to find a way to defeat Sin forever in those 10 years. Expecting victory without cost is just unrealistic; even if Yuna doesn't die, Tidus does unless you get the Perfect Ending in X-2. Minimizing casualties is nice, but sometimes people have to die or sacrifice themselves for the greater good...

It's not so much that the game portrays selfishness as bad, but that selfish actions are completely unavailable. We don't have a morality. The Scions have a morality, the Alliance has a morality, Ishgard has a morality, but we're just a tool to fix their problems. Tools don't have morality. Everything we do so far has been portrayed positively, but it's not our will - it's because Hydaelyn said to do it, or because we've a debt to pay. It's Hydaelyn's morality that really needs to be questioned, because everything revolves around "Hydaelyn / Light = good, Zodiark / Darkness = bad." (Really hope Elidibus shakes up that notion sometime soon.)

The Warrior of Light still isn't able to take selfish actions, and as the DRK 50 quest suggests selfishness is bad here. (I'd like to go Dark Knight on some wenches who are essentially mugging a man in the lower area of Limsa, and steal Animus books from G'jusana since she's extorting people for tomestones, but noooooooo...)

... it's not even about having branching quest outcomes that are ultimately meaningless (that's just an illusion of choice). It's about having our character's personality influence the story, or exploring who we are beyond "Eorzea's hope" / "Hydaelyn's Champion." Which will never happen except in bits and pieces (and absolutely never affect the MSQ) because we're blank slates to be written as each player sees fit.

The quest does not suggest that selfishness is bad. The quest shows that the Warrior of Lights selflessness has been taking a toll on them subconsciously. The Dark Knight stone didn't create those feelings out of nowhere, but instead it gave the true feelings of the Warrior of Light a physical form. However, these feelings were quite strong and threatened to overtake the Warrior of Light to protect them from those who would take advantage of them.