Reevaluation to Tanks Stances and Related Abilities

[Asierid]

Stances are silly and promote "untanklike" behavior.

But I'm tanking it; not the healer or DPS. That's pretty "tanklike".

How about we just keep the choice to utilize cooldowns while in DPS stance so the change isn't even a numerical difference and the healers learn to not blame their mistakes on a DPS stance.

Course, this may be asking for a bit much around here.

[Donjo]

But I'm tanking it; not the healer or DPS. That's pretty "tanklike".

The primary duties of a Tank are fourfold.

1. Keep threat
2. Be effective at not dying
3. Enable the rest of your party to perform their roles efficiently
4. Ensure that the fight is as easy as possible for your party

Leaving your Tank Stance while Tanking...

1. Makes Threat more difficult to keep
2. Makes you less effective at not dying
3. Increases stress on the party and thus makes them less able to perform their roles efficiently
4. Increases the overall difficulty of the fight

It's not terribly tank-like at all. The OP appears to believe that the ability for Tanks to be so untank-like yet still clear content is an issue. Which it is. But, the stances aren't exactly the root of that particular problem. It's that content has inexplicably stopped attempting to severely challenge a Tank's ability to mitigate attacks. As I said in my reply earlier, there was once a time when Tanks were challenged enough in these respects that Tank Stances were much more necessary. This is no longer the case.

[RapBreon]

The primary duties of a Tank are fourfold.

1. Keep threat
2. Be effective at not dying
3. Enable the rest of your party to perform their roles efficiently
4. Ensure that the fight is as easy as possible for your party

Leaving your Tank Stance while Tanking...

1. Makes Threat more difficult to keep
2. Makes you less effective at not dying
3. Increases stress on the party and thus makes them less able to perform their roles efficiently
4. Increases the overall difficulty of the fight

It's not terribly tank-like at all. The OP appears to believe that the ability for Tanks to be so untank-like yet still clear content is an issue. Which it is. But, the stances aren't exactly the root of that particular problem. It's that content has inexplicably stopped attempting to severely challenge a Tank's ability to mitigate attacks. As I said in my reply earlier, there was once a time when Tanks were challenged enough in these respects that Tank Stances were much more necessary. This is no longer the case.

Three and four you literally made up. Stop being sneaky you!

The idea of having 'leadership' thrust upon them is one of the reasons tanking is so unappealing to people in the first place.

[Dererk]

Three and four you literally made up. Stop being sneaky you!

The idea of having 'leadership' thrust upon them is one of the reasons tanking is so unappealing to people in the first place.

She's not talking about leadership what she means is that if the dps and healers have to worry about ripping hate from a mob that the tank is fighting while not in tank stance then they aren't going to be able to go all out and put out their full damage. And healers will have to worry about their healing too. So ya 3 and 4 do make sense.

[RapBreon]

She's not talking about leadership what she means is that if the dps and healers have to worry about ripping hate from a mob that the tank is fighting while not in tank stance then they aren't going to be able to go all out and put out their full damage. And healers will have to worry about their healing too. So ya 3 and 4 do make sense.

Then it's either conflated with the threat point (one) or a non-tank specific duty (making shit easier can be attributed to every role, sometimes going quicker is easier!). Essentially, you're trying to inflate the list of job-specific duties than you actually have.

The other two points that I disagree with, which are leadership archetype duties - which is normally the tank, but not necessarily - or common duties, but it certainly shouldn't be mandatory to only tanking. I also don't necessarily agree that tanking less damage = easier, because context.

[Phoenicia]

She's not talking about leadership what she means is that if the dps and healers have to worry about ripping hate from a mob that the tank is fighting while not in tank stance then they aren't going to be able to go all out and put out their full damage. And healers will have to worry about their healing too. So ya 3 and 4 do make sense.

That's an issue of "bad tanking", not "tanking in DPS stance".

If I am "tanking" so that mobs are facing me, my aggro is at least 25% more than the top DPS, and I'm not causing the healer to excessively heal me, I'm doing my job. Me being in a tank stance or not is irrelevant. As long as the DPS doing their maximum DPS without ripping hate, I'm doing my job hate wise. And as long as the healers are comfortable doing DPS and not bombing me with Cure IIs and lustrates, I'm doing my job mitigation wise.

I, as a SMN no less, have ripped hate off many tanks in their tank stances on DF. I mean as a SMN!! 33% of the SMN's DPS (And aggro) is on its pet! I mean come on!

And then, as a tank, I've never lost hate... or even worried about losing hate, since in most of my DF groups, I happen to be top DPS. So even if you remove the whole enmity multipliers from my enmity combos (regardless of class), being top DPS means the boss/mob is gonna be staring at me right in the eye.

Again, tank not having aggro or dying too fast is an issue of "bad tanking", not "tanking in DPS stance".

[Donjo]

Then it's either conflated with the threat point (one) or a non-tank specific duty (making shit easier can be attributed to every role, sometimes going quicker is easier!). Essentially, you're trying to inflate the list of job-specific duties than you actually have.

The other two points that I disagree with, which are leadership archetype duties - which is normally the tank, but not necessarily - or common duties, but it certainly shouldn't be mandatory to only tanking. I also don't necessarily agree that tanking less damage = easier, because context.

While it is true that elements of points 3 and 4 can be applied to other roles, Tanks have so many more requirements to satisfy them than the others(regardless of who is acting as a leader!) that it is most important for them. This importance is amplified by the ability for them to fail significantly at these two points without failing to satisfy the higher priority duties of keeping threat and not dying. When a Tank fails at these duties, the party truly feels it no matter where they are or what they're fighting. Therefore, a Tank who plays in such a manner is considered to be a terrible Tank even if they held hate and didn't die.

Healers? They play a part in enabling the party to perform their roles through keeping their HP up, but the only way they can fail this task is to not perform their highest priority task of keeping people alive. They can eschew elements if their utility if they wish, which violates the 4th point, but this generally isn't felt strongly, with the sole exception of the highest level raid content, so a healer who skips them is usually considered to still be an okay player because they kept everyone alive.

DPS? They do not enable others to perform their roles, unless the others have already failed theirs and some form of recovery is necessary. They provide utility as well, but they're in the same boat as the healers regarding it. The most significant way they can fail point 4 is to not DPS, which violates their highest priority task.

[RapBreon]

While it is true that elements of points 3 and 4 can be applied to other roles, Tanks have so many more requirements to satisfy them than the others(regardless of who is acting as a leader!) that it is most important for them. This importance is amplified by the ability for them to fail significantly at these two points without failing to satisfy the higher priority duties of keeping threat and not dying. When a Tank fails at these duties, the party truly feels it no matter where they are or what they're fighting. Therefore, a Tank who plays in such a manner is considered to be a terrible Tank even if they held hate and didn't die.

This is...very circular. This paragraph only tells me that these 'duties' exist because if they don't fulfill these 'duties' everybody will know. A smaller margin for error (presuming it exists) does not duplicate your responsibilities. It merely means duty one and two have a grave repercussion tacked on if you can't manage to fulfill them. Which I do agree with.

Another problem with your points (rather you expounding upon your points) is the way you've decided to categorize them. Points three and four are vague and subjective. Compared to the first two, which are specific and objective. You have two completely separate types of categorization.

Take point three; "Enable the rest of your party to perform their roles efficiently". Supremely vague, other than not die and hold threat what exactly is the tank doing that enables people do their job? Positioning? I can agree with positioning (as in don't get idiot Derpgoon's cleaved despite his best wishes - tehehe tots me) that's a primary tank job. But the way your point was worded certainly suggested something far less...tactile.

Point four; "Ensure that the fight is as easy as possible for your party". Also vague, what is easy? Extremely dependent on the task at hand. If your DPS blow insane amounts of ass and the only way you're getting through this A1 enrage timer is to do it Deliverance, then yeah, you're making shit easier by easing the load on your gooba DPS (hi again!). Inverse that situation if your DPS is great but your healer sucks. Judging the party's strengths and weaknesses is important, but largely irrelevant to your role. I tank the Gobwalker (as a Dragoon) on wave 9 of AS2 precisely because I'm compensating for...party...quirks. I'm making it easy as possible, but I'm not a tank.

Tanking only has 'extra jobs' because they're expected to go 'first' and 'lead the way'; as in cultural expectations. This shouldn't be the way it is, but your points reinforce the notion that tanks should bring something extra or have extra expectations - which they do, purely because of community expectations, not actual tasks inherent to the role.

Edit: Forgot one three letter word that altered the entire context and point of my post. I R SMRT!

[Dante_V]

The role of your tank is accentuated by maximizing your jobs ability. For warriors and drks specifically this includes maximizing damage (this increases enmity and mitigation/recovery abilities). And while I agree tanking an entire fight out of tank stance can be silly, calculated stance dance when executed correctly definitely separates the good tanks from the great tanks. Hold hate > minimize damage taken > maximize damage output while maintaining the first two.

The stances are one of the few things that actually make tanking interesting and they aren't going anywhere. Perhaps the discussion would be better provided on how to use and understand them as opposed to complaining and well wishing them away when they aren't going to change.

[Alahra]

And while I agree tanking an entire fight out of tank stance can be silly, calculated stance dance when executed correctly definitely separates the good tanks from the great tanks.

My only concern personally is the growing number of tanks I see that don't think about the "calculated" part. (This applies to STR accessories as well). It's not so much an issue of mechanics so much as it is community attitudes. As DPS focus becomes more accepted as the metagame, I've started to see more tanks trying to go full DPS that aren't practiced enough to or in situations where they shouldn't (such as a lower-geared healer or even in huge pack pulls in dungeons).

That can lead to a pretty messy play experience at times, but I don't think getting rid of stance-dancing is really the answer, as I do think tanks and healers should both have ways to push their limits, especially in progression.