What makes WHM special? Nothing anymore.

[Jerichai]

On the contrary, those solo heal videos and the A1s savage video thread on these forums highlighted the weaknesses of AST even more, and little to no people used these to support the fact that ASTs had the ability to heal.

Some did, but if you go back to those posts you will see other uses it as a basis for saying AST was fine and didn't need adjustments. This isn't an all or nothing thing, let's not make it that way, shall we?

Not to mention I'm not sure what this has to do with countering my original point...?

[Luvbunny]

If there's one class that is THE class that heals, that class isn't replaceable and content has to be built around the amount of healing it can put out. This is the problem with one class being the best healin' class instead of it being based around different types of healing and different things brought to the table.

Well you now have THREE flavors of types of healing you want to bring to the table. The best raw heal numbers, which is your WHM (granted WHM has tons of other abilities as well). Your shield/dps/buffs hybrid of SCH. And finally your healer/buffs of AST. AST needed this adjustment, so it can at least be equal to the other two when it comes to healing capabilities. There is only so many ways they can come up with different ways of healing, not sure if we need another healer for 4.0. FFXI only have two healers WHM and SCH (three if you count Red Mage, and almost four if you must add Summoner, though SMN in FFXI will rain pitchforks on you).

What this game is seriously lacking is pet based jobs, bring on the Puppetmaster and Beastmaster!! As well as pure buffer jobs, but this is like opening a big can of worms, because very very very very few players want to sit on sideline running around playing songs like FFXI's Bard. And support job is never popular in FFXI either, glad this team learned that lesson well. And just like in this game, FFXI's WHM is THE HEALER, but the bad side of this, no party in their right mind in that game, will do any end game content without a WHM, period. And most players there HATE coming as WHM or BARD, SCH can do some healing, but it is used mainly as, SURPRISE!! a DPS job (StunSCH yes please!!).

FFXI WHM at one point was threatened by RDM and SCH healer taking their precious spot, but SE did some adjustment and made WHM the HEALER, resulting to WHM becoming the absolute ONE healer that you have to have in your party for every content. Just be happy that this game is able to provide three distinct flavor of healing style and you have some variety in the jobs area. Healing is a lot more fun here as well.

[Rewind]

Some did, but if you go back to those posts you will see other uses it as a basis for saying AST was fine and didn't need adjustments. This isn't an all or nothing thing, let's not make it that way, shall we?

Not to mention I'm not sure what this has to do with countering my original point...?

Not meant to be countering anything, just stating that the overwhelming opinion on this forum that AST was not fine.

[Tyla_Esmeraude]

At the end of the day, AST is A HEALER first who has some decent cards that can buffs the party. AST IS NOT A BUFFER job who can heal here and there. The same can be said to SCH, they can DPS yes, but they will not outDPS a Summoner.... So now, we have THREE different healers in the game. Be happy, be grateful, be thankful, less bickering, and less finger pointing. Stop playing negative nancy, bitter betty, and doomsday daisy lol.

You completely misunderstood Belhi's posts.

He is not being a negative nancy at all lol infact he's one of the few posters with helpful and contributing posts to this thread. He's just stating the facts in terms of design flaw when it comes to feeling unique on healer roles.

Simply put, if AST are going to match WHM as backbone healers, WHM identity shouldn't be focused on being a backbone healer otherwise they will feel inferior to the more versatile and utility rich AST. This doesn't mean AST should be weaker. As I said, this is a class design issue. It means WHM needs to have its identity not bound up in what has become a prerequisite of healer classes in the role they fill.

Very well said and this is what I've been thinking all this time. The way they designed WHM and SCH and also the fight mechanics or just the core gameplay doesn't leave much room for uniqueness in future jobs. They gave a lot of diverse tools to WHM (single regen, direct aoe heal, regen, an ability to cast faster for a few seconds: PoM, aoe regen) and SCH (mitigation shields, pet with buffs, etc) so any job that comes up with something similar but absolutely needed to be competitive in end game (balance) will get looked down the same way people are looking down at Astrologian when it's not even the job's fault to begin with. I bet if the cards instead had been AoE heal or AoE regen with the same potency as WHM people would've complained anyways because HoTs and AoE heals are supposed to be WHM exclusive according to them. But the way the fights are designed, regen and aoe heals are definetely needed. WHM shouldn't be unique for its core base as all healers, which is.. to heal, but then again they did remove protect and stoneskin traits for the sake of balance and you know what? Being a WHM main I didn't even complain nor cared, in fact I was pleased because that meant more power to my co-healer to help me out in raids and I guess I hated being the only one to cast all buffs lol. Maybe the limitation due to the way the game/jobs were designed was the reason I felt WHM was bland to me (no hate on the job, I've mained WHM since 2.0 and I like it a lot, it's just not exactly fun or interesting for me personally. The only fun I could have was when Holy'ing and then even that got nerfed for the second time so I needed something that kept me awake when playing healer for raids), lacking that something I was looking for in a healer. Astrologian was the answer and I've genuinly had so much fun with it and it saddens me how some people just wanna burn it to the ground because they want to keep feeling special and aren't looking at the bigger picture. It's not the job they should be mad at but at SE devs.

@OP I understand your concerns but don't hate on the job nor the people who play it. It's not our fault how the job was designed. We did ask for the cards to synergize with the heals, but SE designed the job this way and not us. They weren't going to have time to redesign the job from the ground so this is what they came up with and I think they did a good job in terms of balancing the job with others.

[Jerichai]

Not meant to be countering anything, just stating that the overwhelming opinion on this forum that AST was not fine.

I never said it was at the time? I was saying that some people chose to use bad data to develop the opinion that AST was fine. Obviously the buffs SE provided (rightfully) proved that the developers thought otherwise. Regardless, that uninformed opinion did exist and have ramifications on these sub forums when the topic of AST and class balance came up, even if the majority understood buffs were needed.

[Luvbunny]

He is not being a negative nancy at all lol infact he's one of the few posters with helpful and contributing posts to this thread. He's just stating the facts in terms of design flaw when it comes to feeling unique on healer roles.

Sorry, was not trying to say he is negative nancy or debbie downer, lol. Though, if you want to make a comparison, AST is somewhat similar to FFXI's SCH. FFXI's SCH has two sects, they can be a healer with emphasize on HoT, or they can be pure magical DPS similar to BLM. It was a bit rough when they introduce this because how powerful SCH come across. At one point, it was killing WHM and BLM spot in a party, since FFXI's SCH can switch stance at will, and have close to the destruction power of BLM and then some unique abilities as well. SE finally made adjustment to WHMs and turned it into the powerhouse healer that eclipse all other healer type in that game.

SE knows how to make a great hybrid job, FFXI's Red Mage, Scholar, Blue Mage, Corsair and after long tweaks, Summoner and Puppetmaster. I am sure given time, a year from now, SE would probably do more tweaks and redefine some of the characteristic of WHM, SCH and AST. And if they bring another healer type in 4.0, they probably have to make a big distinction to the existing three. There are only so many ways you can heal in this game

[Belhi]

Sorry, was not trying to say he is negative nancy or debbie downer, lol. Though, if you want to make a comparison, AST is somewhat similar to FFXI's SCH. FFXI's SCH has two sects, they can be a healer with emphasize on HoT, or they can be pure magical DPS similar to BLM. It was a bit rough when they introduce this because how powerful SCH come across. At one point, it was killing WHM and BLM spot in a party, since FFXI's SCH can switch stance at will, and have close to the destruction power of BLM and then some unique abilities as well. SE finally made adjustment to WHMs and turned it into the powerhouse healer that eclipse all other healer type in that game. SE knows how to make a great hybrid job, FFXI's Red Mage, Scholar, Blue Mage, Corsair and after long tweaks, Summoner and Puppetmaster.

I am sure given time, a year from now, SE would probably do more tweaks and redefine some of the characteristic of WHM, SCH and AST. And if they bring another healer type in 4.0, they probably have to make a big distinction to the existing three. There are only so many ways you can heal in this game

I can't comment on the balance in FFXI but for FF14 I see this as a problem. With the way content is built they can't simply buff WHM healing output without it undermining the difficulty of encounters. This seems to be something you see a lot in comparisons between FFXI and FF14.

Perhaps its possible to build there healing dynamics in group content but honestly AST's design seems specifically done to allow them to fit into the old roles within the established group healing dynamic. This design choice clashes with the concept you suggest which is for more variety in healing dynamics. Because of this design choice it means the AST is designed to fill the WHM role which means it has to be able to match WHM performance in that role. This in turn clashes with the design intent of the WHM which is bound up in filling the role within the establish healing dynamic.

Basically it means any AST and for that matter any healer that in the future is added, has to be able to match a WHM's performance in the role it holds in the dynamic. If a WHM's design and identity is tied to their performance in that mechanic we see either balance issues or WHM's identity as a role in healing undermined by other classes that potentially offer utility and versatility that WHM don't have.

Simply put, because of how healing works in groups, which SE has intentionally reinforced with AST's design, an AST that is filling the role traditionally held by a WHM in a group must be able to perform at or close to on par with a WHM. Because WHM's identity is designed by the developers to be tied up in filling this role, having another Job being able to match it in that role AND bring extra things to the table undermines the value of the WHM design. Thus having WHM design focused entirely on the role within the established healing dynamic is flawed as it is something that can't remain unique or special to the Job.

That was a rather complicated way of saying it all but I hope its understandable.

[Aomine1992]

From someone who plays both classes my AST can not out heal my WHM...AST is much more diverse but WHM is pure unadulterated healing and managing my MP on WHM is much easier....so they both still have separate roles

[ViDare]

That's a bit of a jump, since you're literally trying to compare a game to a potential life and death situation. Yes, with higher risk there tends to be a higher priority of verifying sources.

ussed/disproved rationally (though that's the part forums tend to fail at).

Tldr: don't take people's word for it level the class for yourself and make your own opinion. Which is contrary to what he's been saying that you don't need to have a job leveled to have an opinion.

[Miiu]

I can agree with the fact that AST is more WHM in nature than SCH. At least in how the class works. I am not talking about healing power!
So yes I see where people are coming from and personally I too would have liked for AST being more of its own thing than anything. Since SE on multiple accounts said they didn't want to buffer/support class makes the AST design all the more strange.
When AST was released they thought the Buffs available can close the gap given its weaker healing power, that wasn't really the case as we have all (maybe not vlady) noticed.
Now being "scared" of making the buffs of AST too amazing for the simple reason it would change the way SE has to design encounters. Which clearly is too much effort because how to you balance dps checks if the AST and its buffs could enable them to blaze past them before the intended timeframe and in the same breath do healing checks the AST can't possibly meet?
So they took the easy way out and increased potencies and made the class more WHM because the abilties were already pretty similiar and SE doesn't have enough time to really overhaul the ability kit.

At least this is my take away from this at least in terms of design of the class. If we're talking about healing power obviously WHM and SCH are still stronger.