Enough is enough

[Seku]

Uh? Isn't Alexander Savage supposed to be for the minority? That's what it was sold to me as.

If it is, then yeah they got it wrong.

Hey, someone that gets it.

[Lone-wolfe-02]

Hmm for some odd reason last patches MT was PLD for days. And people said path and eye lean more towards the tank since fewer classes actually benefits from path. Eye benefited the warrior or the MT. Again PLD were tanks of the year for years. Now a new tank pops up PLD have x amount of issues. Something not adding up besides the content not gearing towards true tanking.

It's pretty obvious to me they're not the number one choice for a mt anymore because drk is better in magic fights and they don't like not being that special snowflake anymore.

[Ipkonfig]

HP != Mitigation. As you add HP to a tank, if you don't equally increase the healers ability to heal that gain in HP then it means nothing, hence why Defiance was changed to give an increase in HP AND incoming healing to bring it in line with base Shield Oath instead of its orignal Wrath stacks giving healing bonus making Defiance half a tank stance.

Paladin was the required main tank for all of coil. Groups would run PLD/WAR, PLD/PLD, or even just PLD and drop the WAR for a DPS. Now that the lines are more blurred and you can bring any tank composition you want Paladins are going to whine till they are the best of the best again? I was forced to PLD for a very long time, and now, I don't even plan on taking it to 60 and pray that I don't because I've always found it boring. World first A2S had a Paladin in the group, there are still plenty of Paladins out there and plenty of groups that bring Paladin. My Savage group's other tank is leveling PLD so he can DRK/PLD if needed at the request of the group leader.

I can agree with an enmity increase for Paladin since the original intention of RoH having a lower coefficient was that they had to spam it even if they were off-tanking which, if Butcher Block and RoH were equal would result in the Paladin taking aggro, but now with Royal Authority there is no reason for them to not be equal.

I can't see a reason to buff anything else. Regardless of what people say Paladin still has the best physical mitigation of the three tanks, and yes right now there are a few magic mechanics that don't favor Paladin's CD options, but A2S is a perfect Paladin fight. Having a shield alone is ~10% overall physical mitigation and that's passive. People also seem to down play Hallowed Ground which is the most amazing cooldown in the game sooooooo many mechanics have been cheated/skipped by using Hallowed Ground.

[pandabearcat]

If savage is meant for the minority then the majority have pretty much nothing to do. Ravana while an interesting fight is pretty much one fight, doable in i170 or lower while everyone has i190 now.

Alex normal is LFR and not actual content for any FC.

So whether they intended for the fights to be cleared fast or not, savage is relevant content for all FCs (late starters and casual guilds aside), and the imo they did not do a good job balancing content with progression. There just isn't enough.

[RapBreon]

If savage is meant for the minority then the majority have pretty much nothing to do. Ravana while an interesting fight is pretty much one fight, doable in i170 or lower while everyone has i190 now.

Alex normal is LFR and not actual content for any FC.

So whether they intended for the fights to be cleared fast or not, savage is relevant content for all FCs (late starters and casual guilds aside), and the imo they did not do a good job balancing content with progression. There just isn't enough.

They simply made LFR too easy and DFable. It should've been harder. I dislike LFR as a concept in general though.

Irrespective of that; the problem is the quantity of bosses they put out on release. Same situation with Bahamut's Coil, despite being 'easier', once Twintania got nerfed most competent raiders had nothing to do. Same problem as ARR release. More bosses means they can ease up on the difficulty on entry bosses while making final ones impossibly challenging, allowing for more gear upgrades along the way.

The majority (of raiders, I assume - non-raiders are not in short supply of activities) are now essentially waiting for esoteric upgrades because they lack the ability/time to get A1+ down for gear upgrades. They can still continue to plug away at A1 until you down it, whether that it is through slow gear upgrades or fine-tuning your own performance. This is still something to do!

I personally, have no problem with the current arrangement as failure tempers success in my view. I'd prefer to be blocked by a boss for weeks, than to finish a tier and be bored until next major patch. Sure the difficulty curve isn't amazing, but hey at least you got to see Alexander right! :P.

[maelor]

At the end of the day the poster is correct. War is not overpowered. There may be minor issues with each class but all in all they are close enough to equal at the end of the day.

[Miggiwoo]

Snip

1. Rolling cooldowns is an effective way to smooth damage. Ensuring your better CD's are up on big hits is important, but using minor cooldowns WAS a big part of tanking. If this has changed, I take your point.
2. eHP is not an effective method of tank survivability as it is based on the assumption that all damage is equal. Large health pool with large healing requirements and spiky damage is objectively worse than smaller health pool and smoother damage (in WoW they call it TMI - not sure that anyone has dug deep enough in FF to measure it).
3. My point with dummy parses is that point blank aoe and invincibility phases break the comparison.
4. Does this maybe have to do with how many people play the class? I see a lot of the other classes, still lots of pallys but much less.
5. My point remains that statics recruiting (on my server) looking for tanks are by and large after a pally. The class is nowhere near as underpowered as people make out.

[Praesul]

Paladin was the required main tank for all of coil. Groups would run PLD/WAR, PLD/PLD, or even just PLD and drop the WAR for a DPS. Now that the lines are more blurred and you can bring any tank composition you want Paladins are going to whine till they are the best of the best again? I was forced to PLD for a very long time, and now, I don't even plan on taking it to 60 and pray that I don't because I've always found it boring. World first A2S had a Paladin in the group, there are still plenty of Paladins out there and plenty of groups that bring Paladin. My Savage group's other tank is leveling PLD so he can DRK/PLD if needed at the request of the group leader.

Can we please stop with the PLD main tank only boogieman? That literally never happened after the WAR rework. PLD was never THE main tank, and if someone clinged to that belief they were either ignorant or stubborn. Everything was perfectly main tanked by a WAR, and in fact was more efficient from a damage perspective. I main tanked all of coil as a WAR, and we always had our PLD in sword oath because Slashing debuff + sword oath DPS was greater than PLD MT + WAR OT.

WAR took more fluff damage than PLD obviously, because PLD gets % damage reduction and shield blocks, but sustained damage was ALMOST never a big concern. Most damage threats in the game are the hug tank busters, and WAR would literally always have something up for everyone one. Storm's Path, Inner beast at the VERY least combined with Defiance, and then a cooldown like Vengeance or Thrill of Battle. Bam, tank busters taken care of. If you needed to cheese a mechanic with HG, it was as easy as swapping, popping HG, and swapping back if need be.

WAR MT was always best after 2.1, and is still very good in HW. People's misconceptions shouldn't be taken into account when talking job balance.

And for God's sake, WAR is almost REQUIRED to do hard content in this game. People like to go on and on about butthurt PLD's angry that they're not the "MT King" anymore, yet WAR is the one tank that should be in every comp. No WAR comps do less damage and actually have less raidwide mitigation just because they don't have a WAR. WAR + DRK or WAR + PLD is better than the alternatives, but apparently that's okay and not a problem? Come on.

[Galgarion]

Let me tell you something man, Mr. Man, Mr. Man with your big words man, let me tell you something Mr. Man. See, okay man, see, Okay, see there's this thing you left out called EQUILIBRIUM man, see it's called BALANCE man.

See this is a moist triangle man, see man, nobody is supposed to be better than anyone else man, see this is a CRAB BUCKET maaan. You know what crabs do in a crab bucket? Whenever one crab tries to climb out, the rest PULL HIM BACK IN, maaaan! So in other words maaaan, if Warriors are doing too well, THEN PALADINS HAVE CRABS!

Pull the strings! Pull the strings! Don't buff me, bro! Nerf THAT guy!

[Phoenicia]

Let me tell you something man, Mr. Man, Mr. Man with your big words man, let me tell you something Mr. Man. See, okay man, see, Okay, see there's this thing you left out called EQUILIBRIUM man, see it's called BALANCE man.

See this is a moist triangle man, see man, nobody is supposed to be better than anyone else man, see this is a CRAB BUCKET maaan. You know what crabs do in a crab bucket? Whenever one crab tries to climb out, the rest PULL HIM BACK IN, maaaan! So in other words maaaan, if Warriors are doing too well, THEN PALADINS HAVE CRABS!

Pull the strings! Pull the strings! Don't buff me, bro! Nerf THAT guy!

Too many men and crabs in this post.

And for God's sake, WAR is almost REQUIRED to do hard content in this game. People like to go on and on about butthurt PLD's angry that they're not the "MT King" anymore, yet WAR is the one tank that should be in every comp. No WAR comps do less damage and actually have less raidwide mitigation just because they don't have a WAR. WAR + DRK or WAR + PLD is better than the alternatives, but apparently that's okay and not a problem? Come on.

WAR is not "required" for any hard content. It is just that WAR is so good that there is no group willing to run without one. Same thing can be said about SCH and DRG. For the entirety of 2.x, this was also true for BRD, but MCH gave us another option.

Also while WAR was mathematically better than PLD as a MT in 2.xx, most groups required the PLD to MT. I was one of the few WARs to main tank during progression of SCoB and FCoB. In situations where I switched to DPS was because our PLD didn't play a good DPS for solo tank content. But that doesn't change the fact that the majority of the community demanded PLD main tank (just like how they demand a WAR tank in any tank composition now).

Yeah, but we're not saying these issues shouldn't be fixed. What I'm personally saying is this should be fixed without "breaking" the balance. You don't "balance" a class based on the current content, you balance it against the other classes. As I said before, DRK is in a good place only because the content allowed it. If the content had physical tank busters, DRKs will be the tanks on these forums demanding defensive buffs (which they need, mind you!). PLD getting the offense of the other two to fit in today's DPS race of Alex.Savage (which is what most paladins are asking for) would simply shelf one of the other two tanks permanently (Read: DRK) as PLD would have defensive superiority AND the same offense as DRK or WAR (whichever SE takes it up to).

The way this should be fixed is not by making PLD stronger, but by making it so there is an actual benefit to non-WAR comps. Right now, whatever small benefit you get from DRK + PLD setups just wanes compared to WAR's overall raid DPS benefits. That's not even taking Storm Path into account even though its benefit is less than what people make it.

Storm Path is great and all, but due to the multiplicative stacking nature of buffs, on busters the 10% damage from SP is reduced by whatever % of CDs you throw (Veng + IB is 44% so SP is actually reducing damage by 5.6% on that buster) and with SCH + WHM doing Medica 2 and Indomitability or Emergency Tactics + Succor will top anyone off even if they were critically low. SP is nothing to laugh at, but it's not the holy grail of all utility as people make it.

An example fix would be making the slashing debuff available to DRK (If it's not feasible on PLD). Two of three tanks having it means you will always have it no matter what composition of two you have, unless you run double PLD.

In my long post on the other thread, I suggested removed clunk from PLD utility and added utility to DRK. If PLD/DRK combo adds safety that any WAR comp doesn't have, people will consider them. Along with the above Slashing R. Down suggestion or inclusion of NIN (PLD+DRK Don't need monks) and you have a "solid" set up.

TL;DR: We're not against making all 3 tanks wanted, but buffing PLD's DPS is not the way to go.