Don't you think the different between Def of Pld/War is so little compare to dps?

[Phoenicia]

Your percentage of difference between a Paladin DPS and Warrior DPS is incorrect. There is greater than 8% difference. You may rely on smacking a dummy for three minutes but a PLD will fizzle out very fast in a longer fight while the Warrior has little trouble maintaining TP.

At the end of the fight the final numbers will be much greater than 8%. People keep throwing out these weird percentages, 5%, 8%, without basis. But you really need to look at the final figures for a Savage encounter. If the difference was so minimal, people wouldn't care what tanks they brought in world firsts groups.

"Smacking a dummy for three minutes" is "Dealing maximum damage in optimal environments". Compared to a real fight, you will always do LESS damage. So if at maximum damage a WAR is barely 80 DPS ahead of PLD, any non-optimal fight, the WAR will be less than that ahead of a PLD. That's how MATH works.

In real encounters, bosses jump and go invulnerable and put things on you so you can't attack, etc. You will have downtime, if you have downtime, TP recovers. Any downtime happening while FoF is on CD is beneficial to your overall DPS. FoF is the best DPS CD in the game, it's better than even Berserk in terms of overall DPS.

So no, my percentages aren't off. And they ARE with basis, check the video I linked! Your comment, on the other hand, is definitely without basis. Show me a video proving that a PLD doing optimal rotation is more than 8% behind WAR.

As a matter of fact, this video linked by Shinzee shows an actual fight where WAR is only 60 DPS ahead of PLD while the PLD was MT'ing most of the fight.

Snip..

Clearing T6/7 and T10/11 two weeks after patch is clearing content with a better weapon and ilv than the groups clearing on first week. If you check videos of first clears, you will see that healers and tanks optimized DPS.

As I told Anger and showed in the video I linked, WAR isn't so far ahead of the other tanks. It's like 80 DPS difference in maxed environments between WAR and PLD and DRK is somewhere in between.

PLD mitigates a lot more than DRK and WAR in almost every encounter. The only exception is A4 where DRK mitigates slightly more than PLD. Check this analysis. It bringing more utility is a plus.

This whole issue of PLD doing less DPS is a knee-jerk reaction of the world first two groups clearing A3S switching PLD with DRK BECAUSE they wanted to switch MNK with NIN for Trick Attack which led to more raid DPS. They would've switched DRG but DRG is highest DPS and Battle Litany is overpowered.

Let this topic die. It's retarded.

[Sir-Meliodas]

Yeah, for a good portion of the video the paladin 100 dps less than the war. I wonder if their gear was controlled for? Different gear can make a big difference to damage.

[Croisciento]

Clearing T6/7 and T10/11 two weeks after patch is clearing content with a better weapon and ilv than the groups clearing on first week

What are you talking about? I'm talking about my group. When we cleared T6 and T7 my whole group only had ilvl 95 weapons, we would only had access to better weapon once we cleared T7. Same goes for T10 and 11. Never did our healers were forced to DPS on these fights nor tanks to drop their tanking stance and we still managed to clear them without facing the enrage. We only really looked at crafted gear later for things like T12 when we realized it would make things a lot easier if we could grab more gear. As for T8 bringing another DPS solved our issues right away, didn't even have to pick up crated gear.

My statement was about groups thinking if there's a good reason to not pick a warrior which is no. Right now all the tanks are required to drop their tanking stance if possible and even if you have your shield you are almost as hard to heal as a warrior. Perfect conditions means you either have a NIN or a WAR applying the debuff on your target which is obviously not always the case.

Yes the difference in maxed environments is not that big, I never said so. I stated that by not bringing a war to your group your overall dps will be signicantly lower and if tanks are dropping their stance to dps i'd rather choose one that does more dps.

My point is I wouldn't give a damn about dps if the encounters didn't ask so much to start with. Yes even 80 dps is huge. My group is running PLD/DRK without a NIN and we wiped so many times at 2% before getting a clear. We eventually got it, that does mean it's doable (never said it wasnt like many seem to claim) but its harder and I can understand why groups would want to make fights easier by having more dps.

[Ladon]

Is this where I'm told all the tanks are fine?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pN-QgZO2RU4

[Wizhard]

Is this where I'm told all the tanks are fine?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pN-QgZO2RU4

Clearly this wouldve gone way better if they had 2 paladins.

[SpookyGhost]

Is this where I'm told all the tanks are fine?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pN-QgZO2RU4

You can do the same w/ DRK (or PLD) + WAR + NIN, WAR + WAR is just the most optimized for that fight due to the split.

[Anger]

My point is I wouldn't give a damn about dps if the encounters didn't ask so much to start with. Yes even 80 dps is huge. My group is running PLD/DRK without a NIN and we wiped so many times at 2% before getting a clear. We eventually got it, that does mean it's doable (never said it wasnt like many seem to claim) but its harder and I can understand why groups would want to make fights easier by having more dps.

It's a greater than 80 dps disparity. These numbers are mostly fabricated and I've proven there to be a 20 - 30% advantage in terms of DPS in favor of the warrior. Any video I show indicating this Phoenicia just says are "baddies" and won't accept it as reality.

I agree with you, I don't care if the warrior does that much DPS and still takes hits the same as a PLD it's just that now encounters are asking for massive DPS checks to be made and its making PLD a pariah.

[Lanier]

It's a greater than 80 dps disparity. These numbers are mostly fabricated and I've proven there to be a 20 - 30% advantage in terms of DPS in favor of the warrior. Any video I show indicating this Phoenicia just says are "baddies" and won't accept it as reality.

I agree with you, I don't care if the warrior does that much DPS and still takes hits the same as a PLD it's just that now encounters are asking for massive DPS checks to be made and its making PLD a pariah.

Ive been following all your post and the only thing Im seeing is a PLD that doesnt want to push his class and want to stay on his comfort zone. Calling PLD pariah, lol. You should do yourself a favor and start maining WAR; at least that way I think we will stop reading your nonsense posts.

[repoe]

Clearly this wouldve gone way better if they had 2 paladins.

meh the video proves nothing- i did as1 savage with pug pld for my 2ndary FC group that usually only clears content once to experience all the game has to offer- using all fending right side ans they maintained 600+ DPS on Faust and 540ish on oppressor. which is what the healers are doing in this video you linked. if you notice the whm and sch maintain a solid 700-800 dps for most of the fight and then both dip to about 600 and sch at one point at the very end drops as low as 500 but then goes back up.

[Brian_]

snip

Like a lot of people have pointed out, the video Phoenicia keeps linking has a number of flaws.

I stopped taking him seriously because the BG forums treat him like a joke. And, in general, I respect their overall opinion on things much more than these forums.

No point in 5 minute parses. All of their rotations just repeat after a certain point and the strange cut off point only messes with the numbers. The only point it shows is how hilariously bad the TP issues are for DRK and PLD.

PLD and DRK are given TP support and 100% uptime on the slashing debuff at no personal expense.

WARs are given no TP support (because they don't need it), have no one removing pacification from them after berserk, and cannot use their optimal DPS rotation because they have to upkeep the slashing debuff themselves (Maim's upkeep allows for SE>BB>BB, SE's upkeep forces you to SE>BB).

All in all, it's a dummy parse of pure DPS output. In a live raid, it's far from as ideal. If any tanking is involved, the PLD's DPS will drop because RoH is their lowest potency combo while BB is the WAR's highest potency combo.

On A1S where there are jump phases, I still find myself needing to weave in shield swipes in order to not bottom out on TP as PLD and as a DRK, I have to use unmend as filler after bottoming out on TP. I guess I could also just not use Blood Weapon off CD but that would also be a DPS loss. So, the only way to deal with it without having a loss of raid DPS is for a NIN to goad you (BRD singing is a DPS loss). It's not balanced that 2/3 tanks require that. And, on that point about NIN, unless you have one in your raid, you won't have 100% up-time on the slashing debuff as a PLD or DRK after 0.5 enters the fight. Even then, it's a DPS loss for the NIN and the slashing debuff can fall off while the NIN is off playing with his add. WAR has no such issues with TP or with the slashing debuff.

A2S is what I would consider an actual trade off. Hallowed Ground allows you to cheese a wave which is actually important. You are giving up 300-500 raid DPS in bringing a PLD vs. a DRK / WAR but HG really helps stabilize your raid during the last few waves. What people need to realize about Hallowed Ground is that it hasn't been as good in HW yet. There are situations where it's just another defensive CD like A1S and A3S. Then there are situations where it's raid changing like in A2S or Ravana EX. There was an abundance of the latter in FCoB. In T10, paired with tempered will (and Holmgang), it basically just negated the tank swap mechanic. In T12, it let you just ignore one revelation cycle. In T13, it made later Akh Morns a lot more manageable. It altered the way you did content which is why it was so good. AS hasn't been designed in the same way -- probably for tank balance concerns. Ultimately, it comes around to hurt PLD's because their stand-out ability has been marginalized.

A3S you have the hand phases where the boss splits and you have a similar situation to A1S. You also have polarities which result in the slashing debuff likely falling off. You also have the WAR leaving the boss to handle tethers which also results in the slashing debuff falling off.

From what I've seen, heard, and experienced of live situations, the difference while MTing is something like 80-100 DPS (somewhere around 10~15% higher DPS for the WAR). While OTing, it's closer to 100-200 DPS depending on downtime (somewhere around 10~20% higher DPS for the WAR). It's not a gigantic difference in DPS but it's a difference that matters. So you give Warriors the best tank DPS (MT and OT), the best tank utility, and better raid comp choices as a result while also giving them adequate survivability. Good for them. Now bring the other tanks in line with that so that there is some semblance of balance and a real choice to make when composing a raid.

You should be able to bring any two of the three tanks to any content and be able to perform equally overall. As is, PLD / DRK comps are strictly worse. You have less raid DPS even with a NIN keeping the slashing debuff up and less raid mitigation.