Don't you think the different between Def of Pld/War is so little compare to dps?

[Phoenicia]

Unfortunately this puts you in a weird situation where the MT is using SE > BB and the OT is using SE > BB > BB. As long as they're equal on gear and the WAR opens with Unchained + buffs vs saving the buffs, I think it's perfectly viable. Alternatively, the WAR MT can do the SE > BB > BB and the OT can do SE > BB for safety (that's what I used to do in 2.0 at least).

The problem with SE > BB > BB is not aggro, it is if you use Fell Cleave/Inner Beast/Fracture once, you drop Maim buff. This is where this "rotation" fails since the whole point of adding a third combo is to fully use the duration of Maim.

While I understand this sentiment (you want to be included in general), if PLD were the OT of choice and DRK were the MT of choice... where would WAR be? :P

The whole mentality of having a tank of choice is messed up, but it's a, let's use the FotM word, "hive mind" issue.

There should be no XT of choice. People should freely choose any combination of two of the three tanks based on what they bring (DPS, utility, mitigation).

The game currently succeeded at making any combination of two "work", but it hasn't in making any combination of two "desired".

List of good raw ideas.

First, in 2.x we had an issue of PLD being MT of choice and WAR relegated to OT though they were fully interchangeable with additional benefits. But that doesn't matter now.

While the ideas themselves sound like a good place to start, they are too raw to accept them as is. They need a lot of work otherwise it'll create more problems than it would fix.

I think each tank should have an area where it shines as a MT and an area where it shines as an OT. The problem is tanks are already homogenized and what little differences between them makes it hard to adjust them without making them more of the same.

In your Scenario DRK/PLD is the best combo for anything since dropping BRD/MCH for a third melee and another melee or caster instead of the healer will net you far more DPS than bringing a WAR/DRK or WAR/PLD. BRD/MCH are brought for their utility and if DRK fulfills that niche, you can drop them entirely (people already dropping MNK entirely when they have DRK). Add in PLD replacing the need of a second healer and you have 5 strong DPS (4 melee 1 caster? 3 melee 2 casters?).

I think that added utility shouldn't be "so strong" that it replaces the need of someone whose role has been that. PLD shouldn't replace a healer and DRK shouldn't replace MCH/BRD. Unless you make WAR a full fledged melee DPS to make up for the difference. But then we'll have people running 6 WARs and we go back to square one.

I think the adjustments should be more moderate. PLD has added defensive/healing utility (already does, but bit clunky) without replacing a healer. DRK needs added utility as it has none and some form of TP management. WAR is fine as is.

From there, it should come down to: "Which two tanks did I end up with? Okay, who is MT and who OT for maximum raid benefit?" instead of the: "Oh, we're at A4S, PLD please change to DRK, WAR put moar STR for moar DPS" that we have now.

That said, as long as we have different classes, there will always be a best and a worst, which is healthy from a balance perspective.

[RecklessLion]

Meh I actually agree with the whole certain tanks for certain role aspect. If all tanks balance to be exactly the same then where does that put warrior? Surely you wouldn't expect people to chose a tank with no real utility and now no dps because dps is balanced. I agree with tanks shining in one department and not the other. Square knew this and to make it a fail safe situation they gave us the option to choose other classes while remaining in the same job so YOU the player do not miss out on content. Sucks.....yeah at the same time you again the player will be that much versatile. I agree with Phoe the main complaints " my class isn't the best anymore! Make everyone balance" and this after PLD had their shine. Makes no sense to have all tanks perform the same. Utility will dominate if that situation occurs and we'll be right back in this situation.

[Reynhart]

From there, it should come down to: "Which two tanks did I end up with? Okay, who is MT and who OT for maximum raid benefit?" instead of the: "Oh, we're at A4S, PLD please change to DRK, WAR put moar STR for moar DPS" that we have now.

The "problem" is that "Which two tanks did I end up with ?" is exactly the situation where no tank is excluded because people just deal with "what they end with". It's also why, most of the time, you can play any job you want.

But, if whatever couple tanks you end with, you'll still have two healers and a "refresher", it means that, the overall DPS and usefulness of the party will be the same. And if the rest of the party is the same anyway...bring the couple tanks with the more DPS.
To balance it, you don't have to increase WAR to be a full fledged DPS. You have to DECREASE DRK and PLD DPS so that the additionnal DPS only "compensate" for their lack of damage.

Let's suppose the following DPS numbers (Numbers probably not accurate, but the idea is there):

• MT : 600 (Since we're talking hypothetical adjustments, why not all tanks doing around the same DPS when MT'ing? )
• Healers : 300 DPS when they don't have to heal all the time, 0 when they're on full heal duty
• "Refresher" : 800 DPS since they have to reduce their damage to refill MP or TP
• Full fledged DPS : 1200
• WAR OT : 1000 (It'll be used as a base to adjust other tanks OT DPS)

First setup :Any MT/WAR OT/2 healers who can DPS/1 Refresher/3 DPS
600+1000+300+300+800+1200+1200+1200 = 6600 overall DPS.

Second setup :Any MT/PLD OT/1 healer full healing duty/1 Refresher/4 DPS
600+x+0+800+1200+1200+1200+1200=6200+x overall DPS.
=> So a PLD OT would need to do around 400 DPS. Even less than when MT'ing since he'll probably use most of its GCD on healing duty and probably only do incomplete Riot Blade combo to refill its MP.

Third setup :Any MT/DRK OT/2 healers who can DPS/4 DPS
600+y+300+300+1200+1200+1200+1200=6000+y overall DPS.
=> So a DRK OT would need to do around 600 DPS.
Same as MT. It could mean that neither of its stance should really affects its damage output, or that he'd use both stances even when OT'ing.

Again, my numbers are probably not really accurate but the ratio could be calculated to obtain the same results.

[RecklessLion]

Meh warriors only getting the massive shine because of burn phases. Once another massive hard hitting mob with multiple phases watch how PLD take charge with their mighty shields haha. It is what it is.

[Phoenicia]

Snip.

As I said in my post, the ideas are too "raw" and need a lot of things to consider so you don't break more than you fix. I'm not against your ideas.

Snip.

No one is disagreeing that the content is what's forcing people to pick up WAR. This heavy "Bring more DPS for DPS check" content is what the PLD doesn't mesh well with.

What I'm personally against is buffing one tank without any "balancing" just to match the content. As long as PLD has "better defenses" than the other two tanks, it should not do more damage. Even if said defenses aren't relevant in today's content.

DRK needs more reliable ways to defend against physical damage and if content shifts to physical damage, DRK will be the tank that is left out and complaining on these forums.

[RecklessLion]

Why I agree with you on a few of comments. I'm against the buffing for exact result because results will never be the same. Favors will eventually come into play. This system is flawed just like everything else. At the same time I'm content with this idea. It ignores the one tank being the best in all situations. It turns into a no brainer eventually if that idea plays a part. It will become a tier base choice like fighting games. Here there's a situation this tank excells at and vice versa for other situations. It eliminates one tank from being the greatest. So I take back my very first comment.

[Iagainsti]

Because it's getting ridiculous.

Seriously this.^^

There are about 5-6 threads about this same topic within a week. From a pro-warrior standpoint, it's ridiculous to see this over and over. Put your thoughts on a class you'd rather complain about instead of play as and have fun in ONE thread please. You're points are nothing new and tired news really. Warrior is not getting nerfed #justchill

[RecklessLion]

I doubt it will stop though. People want to be the best with no real challenge at everything instead improvising, using what you have available, and riding out a bad storm. Complaints will happen no matter. I'm coming from the fighting game community where player blame tiers and not their horrible play style. I didn't think the same concept would happen in what suppose to be a friendly not big pvp route mmo. Guess that's not case here haha.