Dragoon Punished at lvl 58 - What needs to be done with Wheeling Thrust

[RapBreon]

Ravana doesn't make it harder. It simply presents you with a coin-toss. Heads 200. Tails 290. Defy the coin toss and your kb'ed and slowed. Probably a negative net potency. That's not difficulty.
Any other fight in the game that allows you to attack both back and flank (anything that's not early Demon Wall) doesn't add any real difficulty either. At most it delays Jump.

I'd love to see a proc that actually messes with my HT, combo 1, Pb, combo 2, HT, combo 1, Pb, combo 2 rotation. Wheeling Thrust does not however provide that.

This is not entirely accurate from experience, sometimes I can slip the correct positional in if I'm quick off the mark on Ravana and my reading comprehension is on-point. I make a choice to go for that 90 potency at the risk of the KB and slow; that choice to 'push the boundary' is what makes the mechanic worthwhile for me. I stand in AoE all the time for that 90 potency (situational, but I consciously make the choice). Hell, I've thrown an entire Sav 1 attempt to the wind because I got the entire team resin bomb'd because I wanted that 90 potency; RnGesus gave me the wrong proc and goddamn I'm not losing to that Monk. So I guess it has some net effect (as opposed to none, which is being argued by many).

It's not 'difficult' per se - not much is with practice - but it allows me to make a decision; which I enjoy. By itself it's not complex, but sometimes if your DRG is a goon (like me) it has interplay with specific boss fights.

[Eecka]

... So... you agree then? Because the whole point of the thread is that it randomly changing from one move to another doesn't enhance the gameplay.

This is what I get for quickly trying to write on phone at work So, what I meant is the whole buff upkeep is the REAL salt of the new stuff, and the randomness of 4ths is just added flavour. I consider it on par with for example the jump animation lock - when you know you're about to use the skill, you need to prepare for using it. When you're about to jump, you want to wait for it not to be between 3rd and 4th and not in a place where you'll be put to danger. When you use the 3rd, you have to be ready to move to both places and again have a plan for the AoEs, be prepared to lose the positional bonus in order to keep the timer going etc. It gives meaningful choice and reaction to the gameplay, rather than the mind-numbing 2.0 rotation.

[Eecka]

*post*

Yeah, at Rav in that particular phase, it is a coin toss. So because this one encounter exists, positionals are bad? In that phase, your goal is to keep hitting him the only way you can. He specifically forces you to ignore positionals in favour of mechanics, so it's pretty obvious that this phase of the fight is not one to demonstrate how easy/hard positionals are to use.

And no, hitting the 4th doesn't add any REAL difficulty. Just like hitting the positional on CT and HT doesn't add any REAL difficulty. It's easy to hit them unless the tank is spinning the mobs around. What 4th adds is the need for the player to stay awake and pay attention to what's happening. 2.X rotation is SO_BORING. And hell yeah, I want a proc that actually messes with the combos as well, anything to make the rotation more dynamic. 4th isn't the holy grail that adds this, but it helps. Static rotations are so 2004.

[Fynlar]

^ This is why Wheeling Thrust is arguably a problem of lack of complexity, or essentially "spoon-fed dps". It is identical to another move except that it uses another positional requirement. It requires no additional thinking

Yes, it does. Before WT, you could automatically move to the flank of the target for the 4th hit because you knew that was your only option for sweetspotting.

Once you get WT, that's no longer the case. Your sweetspot can be either in the side or the back, and you now have to pay attention and note which one you get. That is additional processing power used (however negligable to you that might be; it isn't that negligable to everyone though) that was not necessary before in order to get, at best, the same level of performance you already had before. In practice? It will likely be worse performance than before, because people who play this game aren't perfect with positionals, as legions of subpar MNKs could show anyone -- and MNKs don't even have to deal with RNG when it comes to their positionals.

No, it's a bout gratification and how a minority of the members in the Dragoon Community feel as if they don't get enough of it apparently. Every debate here borders on tantrums triggered by obsessive compulsive disorder - which leaves me concerned for the mental health of those who must insist on an absolute perfect path to 60,

I really don't think it's that unreasonable to expect each new ability added to a job to either build upon the job or, at worst, be ignorable so that it doesn't have a detrimental effect on the job... particularly considering this is what every other job in the game has.

Apparently though, you think that's okay, which just leaves me hoping you never design any sort of video game I happen to play in the future.

[Leonus]

stuff.

I am of the mindset that people are complaining because the damage was "free" at 56, then was no longer "free" at 58.

I'm also of the minet that if people have that big of a problem with it, when in all actuality there is nothing wrong with it, the should play another class. People want easy damage, when the actual practice of both skills is easy damage anyway.

The RNG is 50/50, if your standing where you should be, you can react to either without very far. People are making an issue out of something quite small.

[Omni-Vocational_Ryan]

if they made each one linked to a certain combo, WT to Full and FaC to CT that be great, but really it's not that big of a deal.

[Shurrikhan]

Yeah, at Rav in that particular phase, it is a coin toss. So because this one encounter exists, positionals are bad?

Clearly not my position. (Brief aside: Monk is my favorite melee. Just waiting on Chakra improvements ...that will likely never come.) I only mentioned it because others had used it as an example on the page I was looking at when writing this and felt compelled to correct the thought and because it's the only truly unique/non-default circumstance I could mention. It is obviously, as you said, not an example of positionals generally.

My only solution for the dulldrum of 2.x DRG was to drop to a 2.22 GCD with Selene. My rotation toggled (or 'altered' with any downtime) with Fey Glow. Can't honestly say I find the C1, C2 any better though, even with the added bonus of the combo-4th.
My only reason for joining this thread was because I found WT's implementation ridiculous (along with any excuse for it aside from "leveling curve!"). What I'd actually want for the DRG job probably belongs to a very seperate suggestion thread. Only still writing here cus it's already bloated as hell, so oh well. v.v

@RapBreon Yeah I get that, totally. I just didn't think it unique to the combo-4ths (since it's in HT and CT albeit for 20 and 40 potency less difference), so I didn't mention it there. Threading the needle / running the edge is always a fun element to have.
@Fynlar That's why I mentioned Jump being delayed - since it will eat into your movement for effectively longer than it will eat into your rate of attack alone. As you said though, I suppose that is an increase in difficulty (could argue 'real' til blue/draenai/corpses), even not in any new form. I was overly broad.

[warren-ragnarok]

It's all practice.

i can see all the loldrg's saying "sh**, now i have to get good"

all the good drgs must be saying to them "get good or go brd"

[Havenchild]

After having made it to 56 on DRG, I can see both the skill ceiling increase and understand it doesn't need to be easy but I disagree with the un-needed conplexity. All the RNG and level 58 skill serves is to potentially lower your DPS from a missed positional. That in itself seems pretty damn pointless outside distinguishing those from the rest who can perfectly execute it.

I think the more correct way they could have added complexity to it but reduce the RNG was simply to give Full Thrust a flank positional which then combos into Wheeling Thrust. Chaos Thrust would then combo into Fang and Claw thus you would have a rear and flank setting on each combo string that would force movement as well. Complexity without RNG.

[Jonnycbad]

The crux of the argument in it's most boiled down form is:

The transition from 56->58 is [added complexity with no increase in benefit]. If it was their intention of 'training us to get comfortable with new mechanics for when we hit 60", then give us both abilities at 56, or both abilities at 58. Or make FaC be a 50% proc at 56, with the other 50% being no proc (as it would have been a WT proc, which you have yet to learn).