Something need to be done about BAD DPS.

[Black_Rose]

So basically you are saying, that Healers and Tanks ALWAYS have to play as good as they can (since their failure in anything above Brayflox means a wipe), yet DPS can play with one hand up their... *ehm*... because DPS checks are only in harder content which should be done with a premade group?

And people wonder why we say that DPS in this game are babied...

no idea what has offended you with my post, but it's probably just your way to misinterpret what i was actually pointing out.
nowhere have i said Tanks and healers have to play as good as they can while DPS have to be the lazy bunch.
what i'm saying is, that it would be healthier for a game to have boss encounters that actually allow a group to work out tactics to beat it other than just racing down each phase as fast as possible.

i mean, it worked in other games i played for years, why does this one need to enforce a dps check then?
wouldn't you say that long fights that really require brain and patience are better than short fights that just focus on dodging and putting out high dmg numbers?
have you never played a mmo that had lasting boss fights?
why does it always have to be, kill boss within time or die? what's the reason behind this decission?

[Stupiduglytaru]

Today you have to be careful in saying that you are using a parser, it could end up you in being banned, ergo why we dont have many accidents with that, but I guarantee you without a doubt that the day is out officially, we will be seeing zillions of posts of people that will complain about the abuse of that tool. Dont mix things thank you very much.

Mei

When mch was first released and the uproar with its dps yoshi said this "mch can do good damage but maybe players parsers aren't very accurate"

The fact is SE knows they exist, as long as you do not attack someone's dps with your parser information its acceptable. In fact I think SE congratulated a group for clearing first time, video showed them using a parser lol...

[sirDarts]

no idea what has offended you with my post, but it's probably just your way to misinterpret what i was actually pointing out.
nowhere have i said Tanks and healers have to play as good as they can while DPS have to be the lazy bunch.
what i'm saying is, that it would be healthier for a game to have boss encounters that actually allow a group to work out tactics to beat it other than just racing down each phase as fast as possible.

i mean, it worked in other games i played for years, why does this one need to enforce a dps check then?
wouldn't you say that long fights that really require brain and patience are better than short fights that just focus on dodging and putting out high dmg numbers?
have you never played a mmo that had lasting boss fights?
why does it always have to be, kill boss within time or die? what's the reason behind this decission?

But healers and tanks DO have to play as good as they can, otherwise the team wipes.
DPS can be lazy because DPS being lazy does not cause wipes.

Also some bosses are tactical and don't really require to burn it ASAP, it is better if you kill them fast, but that's it. But even in those the tanks and the healers have to do their best.
Now we finally have more stuff that actually requires DPS to PLAY THEIR ROLE and do damage, and people are crying about DPS checks. And of course we are crying about lazy DPS...

[Gilraen]

That's EXACTLY what's anecdotal about your evidence. Your lack of knowledge and information makes you overvalue ONE bad experience while being COMPLETELY unable to see any neutral/good experience you might have had with people who use parsers, because you DON'T KNOW who is and who isn't.

All it takes is one bad apple... You also assume that I would care what other peoples' numbers would be. So long as they are making their best effort then all should be well. And before you punch holes in the apple analogy, consider the bunch is the game's prevailing player population.

[Hyrist]

A little more 'hand holding' may go a long way in resolving this problem. A lot of people are left on their own to improved with nothing but a video guide to teach them. That doesn't meet everyone's learning methods. Some people learn best from human interaction.

And I'd say we've got a problem with people adapting to level 60 play across all classes. DPS is the worst right now because endgame has some pretty hard DPS checks and those are fairly obvious when they fail. It does not help that Alexander Savage requires gear levels above the average right now.

So there is a lot of added pressure for DPS, and a lot of players play DPS because they want to avoid the pressure associated typically with healers and Tanks.

What I propose, with respect to everyone's time - is that we attempt to assist in the improvement of players in DPS in a respectful and understanding manner. Some of the best endgame players I've seen in MMOs were coached, brought up from no skill at all, and were invested into patiently to help them establish their skills.

If it is at all possible for people, take the time to do so. Game Progression isn't going anywhere. We're on a six month cycle and most people still have to catch up to what's available to them. If you can find it in yourself to do so, please help others catch up in method and mindset. While there will inevitably be those not respectable to feedback, on the whole we only stand to benefit as a community by being welcoming and patient to those willing to learn and improve.

[Darkstride]

A little more 'hand holding' may go a long way in resolving this problem. A lot of people are left on their own to improved with nothing but a video guide to teach them.

However many of these same people whos hand needs to be held are those same people playing victim when they never improve and never progress. At some point, people need to take responsibility for themselves and their performance.

No amount of bickering or back-and-forth discussion is going to change the fact that this is an online multi-player game and that each player's performance can and will affect how others experience the game. One person CAN cause a wipe. If they do so repeatedly without taking any personal responsibility and continue to move forward with no intent on improving, then they are a bad player. It doesn't only apply to DPS, however there are some strict DPS checks in the game and a certain threshold has to be met or you simply aren't doing what is needed to progress.

Respecting other players' time and game play experience goes both ways. Good players can offer assistance to under-performers, but then those players need to accept it and learn and grow. Instead they often pull the "I play how I want cause I pay for the game" nonsense. Those players also need to respect others time and realize that they could very well be having a negative effect on other players experiences. No one is special, we all pay for the same game so get over it.

In the end, I think parsers are a good idea if they are utilized properly. Players should use them for personal growth and understanding. However, as it has been discussed before, that requires a certain degree of maturity and mutual respect that the community as a whole is not likely to reach. It also requires players to take responsibility for their own actions and performance, but it's apparently easier to place the blame on others.

[Amiaze]

I don't think that having a DPS check within an instance before allowing players to run certain content is a bad idea. It may seem offensive because we're in a social setting, but it is present in a lot of single-player games. Other games do it all the time. Fighting games wouldn't let you unlock a character you wanted to play as unless you defeated certain challenges. Single-player RPGs won't even let you access the main story that we can freely see in FFXIV unless you defeat grueling bosses.

Anyone who plays Shin Megami Tensei knows exactly what I'm talking about.


The hard truth is, that's just the name of the game when it comes to endgame content, and people that aren't putting forth the effort should realize that they're killing the fun for other people and, eventually, will kill it for themselves when they struggle to pass certain fights.

But, honestly, a DPS check wouldn't really solve the main issue. I honestly think the main issue here is that players simply don't respect each other. When I used to heal, I refused to level (arcanist?) for Swiftcast because, quite frankly, I didn't want to. And that was okay when we were running dungeons and nobody died, because I never needed to use it.

It was a different story altogether when we faced Twintania. I realized that there was simply no getting around it. I needed Swiftcast to raise people if I wanted to do the harder content in the game. It also came in handy when Stoneskin II was released.

Similarly, I don't currently have Blood for Blood to cross-class for MCH. So I'm working on that before I run harder content in Heavensward, but my parties do just fine in normal content without it.

We just have to recognize and respect what it is we're queuing up for and play the game accordingly. I know I wouldn't have fun adhering to a rigid DPS rotation because I, personally, would feel like a robot. And that's why I love MCH, because there is a rotation, but it's proc-based. To me, it's more organic and freeflowing than the other roles I tried out.

Just treat the game like alcohol. Have fun and play responsibly so that nobody gets hurt. This is a social, team-based game. Playing alone is fun, but you should always be able to have fun with the team you're playing with, and they should have fun running things with you. If not, then something is wrong.

[Teryaani]

But healers and tanks DO have to play as good as they can, otherwise the team wipes.
DPS can be lazy because DPS being lazy does not cause wipes.

<devil's advocate mode> Depending on the content, lazy healers and tanks can get carried too. Also the DPS can easily cause wipes by tapping out the healer's resources either by taking too much avoidable damage or taking so long to kill the boss that simple attrition does the group in. </devil's advocate mode>

I like the idea of the personal parser. I definitely want to know how well I'm doing.

[LunaHoshino]

wouldn't you say that long fights that really require brain and patience are better than short fights that just focus on dodging and putting out high dmg numbers?
have you never played a mmo that had lasting boss fights?
why does it always have to be, kill boss within time or die? what's the reason behind this decission?

Longer fights lead to raid fatigue, which increases the chances of people messing up. And if you mess up in the final phase of a 20+ minute fight, that's at least another 15 minutes just to get back to the point in the fight where you messed up so you can try again.

A lot of players aren't going to find something like that fun.

[ShaneDawn]

But healers and tanks DO have to play as good as they can, otherwise the team wipes.
DPS can be lazy because DPS being lazy does not cause wipes.

Also some bosses are tactical and don't really require to burn it ASAP, it is better if you kill them fast, but that's it. But even in those the tanks and the healers have to do their best.
Now we finally have more stuff that actually requires DPS to PLAY THEIR ROLE and do damage, and people are crying about DPS checks. And of course we are crying about lazy DPS...

You're making it sound like a dungeon run is really stressful for healers/tanks. Last I checked, everything outside the hardest content was a faceroll for all classes. If you're implying that dps can be lazy on any actual difficult content, oh how wrong you are.

I do think we should have a proper personal parser so everyone can step up their game. What I don't believe in is all the healers/tanks implying that a no-brainer dungeon run requires much effort. Playing good has nothing to do with it, when all classes can play considerably bad on 90% of the content and still clear it. Arguably the average dungeon DPS is the weakest link on average, but should we really waste our breath over who has it the easiest on easy content?