Quote Originally Posted by Aiselia View Post
Happily, that does not change the fact that a mistimed Jump can kill the DRG and nobody laughs at the Ninja for missing Trick Attack, so my point still stands.
It really doesn't.
Jumps are part of DRG gameplay. It's a core thing they need to work around.

Trick Attack is a raid cooldown, it's not similar and it have a positional is not really a big part of NIN gamplay since it's only once a minute.
Exactly the same point that DRG's Jump is something that's propagates a previous stereotype while NIN's TA is not as apparent shows why they're on a different level of comparison.
Not to mention Jumps were reduced before and then again recently in HW.

It's not about who has the most pass fail mechanics. It's about where those mechanics are.
DRG itself had a similar mechanic which they phased out because it's just clunky.
Moreso, Trick Attack acts as a raid dps CD.
Personal failures should kill you or affect your dps, but it should affect something like a raid cd's ability to activate.

But then, it's also not dependent on only the NIN.
If the tank moves unexpectedly, the whole raid suffers the dps loss. It's not even their CD to manage and they can make it fail.
It's okay you might lose some positional dps because of that, but not that kind of CD.

A DRG jump fail is completely on them.
A TA fail might be on the tank, which is not even something they should be responsible for.

TA is only once a minute, but the design just isn't good.
It's expected that Jobs are responsible to activate Raid CDs at the right time or within the right range.
But the raid shouldn't lose the 10% Vul Up because of a missed positional regardless if it's once per minute.

The effects being based on positionals just aren't great.
Fail mechanics are fine, that's just a good implementation of it.

Your comparison is taking two things that aren't comparable and linking them as fail mechanics.
But that's not looking at all the fail mechanics of both classes so it's a flawed comparison.
The original analogy was Battle Litany with TA which are comparable.

I don't think that Pluvia's point was that Battle Litany actually needs a fail mechanic.
It was that it would be ridiculous if it had one, because a raid cd shouldn't need something as nuanced as a positional which can be affected by factors outside your control.

TA having the effect not based on positional isn't going to change gamplay much.
You still lose 160 potency if you miss it. It would just mean the raid doesn't lose out because the NIN or Tank messed up or something unexpected happened in the raid.
Raid shouldn't lose out a CD like that because of those situations. The NIN can lose out or die, but TA shouldn't be affected.