NIN -- how does everyone else feel we're doing?

[Pluvia]

I have no issue with trick attack honestly. It's rare that I miss the buff honestly and it is frustrating but I like it as it is.

The real handicap with ninja is the mudra lag. It prevents the class form being played as intended and can significantly drop dps if it is substantial enough. The mudras need to be client side but I honestly don't think the developers care enough about the issue to fix it which is kind of sad because ninja is my favorite class.

Sure its rare but it still should be changed its archaic all other instances of this were removed. (Look at the dragoon fiasco)

[Aiselia]

NO one with intelligence could give a crap over the LOL DRAGOON stupidity.

And you miss the point of me mentioning it. Namely that jump fails were prevalent enough to warrant becoming a stereotype, while Trick Attack fails are rare enough to not be a stereotype or unimportant enough to be noticed.

GO back and look at what you quoted

I don't need to. You wanted to apply a fail mechanic to Litany (even though range can be enough of a fail mechanic) because you, for some reason, think that DRGs don't have fail mechanics. You ignored Jump, which can outright kill a DRG if, as you put it, shit happens.

So, as I said, you can have another fail mechanic on Litany when your most frequently used OGCD has a chance to kill you if bad things happen.

I have this feeling like you don't even play any of the classes you're talking about.

I don't main them, no. That's what allows me to look at it objectively rather than the whole "Grass is greener on the other side" thing you've got going for you. I actually officially main Warrior now, so you're welcome for applying your debuff for you.

However, given you complained about how "no one can think objectively", it seems odd that you would try to call someone out for not playing them when playing the classes, and especially maining one of them, would more likely actually bias your arguments because you'd have subjective experience with the class instead of speaking from a purely objective standpoint.

[Darkthrone]

Allow DE and AE to combo off shadowfang ^^/

[Atreides]

And you miss the point of me mentioning it. Namely that jump fails were prevalent enough to warrant becoming a stereotype, while Trick Attack fails are rare enough to not be a stereotype or unimportant enough to be noticed.

Appearently you don't know that the loldrg stigma comes mainly from FFXI, the Jump thing was merely used to relive what is old.
It's not something that came up only because drg died when using jump at the wrong time.
So it's very unlikely that another job will take the lolcrown as it doesn't even come from this game in the first place.

Besides looking objectively at classes doesn't work. I wouldn't dare to tell a Bard how to play just because I think I know what is right and what is wrong.
Objectively I thought the only problems ninjas face would be the TP problem and Mudra lag, once I got it to 60 I got the whole picture.
Thats also the reason why I shut up about Dragoons, I wouldn't even think about telling them whether they are right or wrong when it comes to their skills because you can only know that much about a job when you haven't even played it at 60.

[Aiselia]

Appearently you don't know that the loldrg stigma comes mainly from FFXI, the Jump thing was merely used to relive what is old.
It's not something that came up only because drg died when using jump at the wrong time.
So it's very unlikely that another job will take the lolcrown as it doesn't even come from this game in the first place.

Fair enough, no, I didn't know that because I didn't play FFXI. (Although it's also arguable about whether that matters.)

Happily, that does not change the fact that a mistimed Jump can kill the DRG and nobody laughs at the Ninja for missing Trick Attack, so my point still stands.

[Atreides]

Happily, that does not change the fact that a mistimed Jump can kill the DRG and nobody laughs at the Ninja for missing Trick Attack, so my point still stands.

That might be due to the fact that missing Trick attack is no laughing matter, while watching a Dragoon jump into his death does look funny. Blame the animation.

[Aiselia]

That might be due to the fact that missing Trick attack is no laughing matter, while watching a Dragoon jump into his death does look funny. Blame the animation.

Or it might be because nobody really notices the difference.

[Allyrion]

Happily, that does not change the fact that a mistimed Jump can kill the DRG and nobody laughs at the Ninja for missing Trick Attack, so my point still stands.

It really doesn't.
Jumps are part of DRG gameplay. It's a core thing they need to work around.

Trick Attack is a raid cooldown, it's not similar and it have a positional is not really a big part of NIN gamplay since it's only once a minute.
Exactly the same point that DRG's Jump is something that's propagates a previous stereotype while NIN's TA is not as apparent shows why they're on a different level of comparison.
Not to mention Jumps were reduced before and then again recently in HW.

It's not about who has the most pass fail mechanics. It's about where those mechanics are.
DRG itself had a similar mechanic which they phased out because it's just clunky.
Moreso, Trick Attack acts as a raid dps CD.
Personal failures should kill you or affect your dps, but it should affect something like a raid cd's ability to activate.

But then, it's also not dependent on only the NIN.
If the tank moves unexpectedly, the whole raid suffers the dps loss. It's not even their CD to manage and they can make it fail.
It's okay you might lose some positional dps because of that, but not that kind of CD.

A DRG jump fail is completely on them.
A TA fail might be on the tank, which is not even something they should be responsible for.

TA is only once a minute, but the design just isn't good.
It's expected that Jobs are responsible to activate Raid CDs at the right time or within the right range.
But the raid shouldn't lose the 10% Vul Up because of a missed positional regardless if it's once per minute.

The effects being based on positionals just aren't great.
Fail mechanics are fine, that's just a good implementation of it.

Your comparison is taking two things that aren't comparable and linking them as fail mechanics.
But that's not looking at all the fail mechanics of both classes so it's a flawed comparison.
The original analogy was Battle Litany with TA which are comparable.

I don't think that Pluvia's point was that Battle Litany actually needs a fail mechanic.
It was that it would be ridiculous if it had one, because a raid cd shouldn't need something as nuanced as a positional which can be affected by factors outside your control.

TA having the effect not based on positional isn't going to change gamplay much.
You still lose 160 potency if you miss it. It would just mean the raid doesn't lose out because the NIN or Tank messed up or something unexpected happened in the raid.
Raid shouldn't lose out a CD like that because of those situations. The NIN can lose out or die, but TA shouldn't be affected.

[Aiselia]

Your comparison is taking two things that aren't comparable and linking them as fail mechanics.

That would be false, because I didn't compare Jump and TA. I compared Jump and Ninjutsu.

Pluvia suggested adding a fail mechanic onto Litany (even though it already has one in the form of range).

I said it was a fair addition when Ninjas have an increased chance to die when using their most common OGCD.

After all, if we're going to enforce fail mechanics on raid buffs across all classes, then we should also enforce increased vulnerability on OGCDs across classes too. To be fair.

[Allyrion]

That would be false, because I didn't compare Jump and TA. I compared Jump and Ninjutsu.

You took a comparison of two raid CDs, then said that NIN's ninjutsu should get a survival mechanic because of a raid CD change.
It's nonsensical.

I think you're confused mostly because you think adding a fail mechanic to Battle Litany was a sincere request.
It obviously wasn't. This isn't about DRG or NIN having enough fail mechanics.
It's about raid CDs not having this type of fail mechanic.

Range is obviously an acceptable one.