NIN -- how does everyone else feel we're doing?

[Aiselia]

So can we have some kind of fail mechanic for Battle Litany?

When Ninjutsu locks you in position for as long as Jump, sure.

Actually, that's a great solution to Ninjutsus. Make them all have cast times.

Then you get to feel what it's like to have to time it like Jump AND it fixes mudra lag!

[Subucnimorning]

When Ninjutsu locks you in position for as long as Jump, sure.

Actually, that's a great solution to Ninjutsus. Make them all have cast times.

Then you get to feel what it's like to have to time it like Jump AND it fixes mudra lag!

Assassinate locks you for longer than Jumps now, just saying.

[Subucnimorning]

The personal potency lost is understandable.
The Vulnerability Up shouldn't be tied to the positional though.
I've forgiven it up to now because it's only once a minute, but in the end you're right.

Effect being tied to positionals is the old drg design, which was good.
You shouldn't lose that raid CD for a missed positional.

That and TP are probably what NIN needs most.
Well not counting Mudra lag, which everyone agrees is an issue. Just not sure if that'll be fixed soon.

Couldn't agree more, people can compare 9/12 abilities for NIN don't require positionals to MNK all but ToD requiring positionals, but DRG or MNK don't have abilities that just don't work if you miss the positional that affects the entire raid's dps.

[Atreides]

Dragon Kick VS. Dancing Edge

Really? You can hardly compare a skill that you use of the START of a combo with a skill you have to dedicate a whole combo.
I main Monk and this statement is really not working, if Dragon Kick happens to Crit you lose nothing both skills have a 150 potency, it's just like Bootshine but Dancing Edge on the other hand is a DPS loss compared to Aeolians Edge no matter what.

I don't even care about positionals because positionals are piss easy.
Doesn't change the fact that Ninjas do have the one positional that gets punished the most if missed.

The funny part is positionals are the only thing going for monk which appearently makes us hard to play and people are adamant in defendig it.
If you can't hit a positional go out of you way and use Fracture or Touch of Death while moving to where you need to be.
Other jobs don't have that option because Monk work with "stances", they just suck up a straight DPS loss.

[Allyrion]

pretty much every A3S clear has used a ninja, that says a lot about their current place in endgame. hint: they're more desirable than mnks

Dragon Kick was the core of MNK utility. It made them pretty important before.
The traited Mantra was a plus and they had the highest dps too.

Now melee dps is pretty similar, with DRG seeming a bit ahead in real fight scenarios and bringing Litany as well.
Then NIN is the least affects by fight mechanics overall with its almost non-existent ramp up, in addition to bringing Trick Attack.

With DRK now bringing Delirium, MNK really lacks utility.
If you have a DRK, I would always pick up a NIN over a MNK except for maybe A1S (but that's a really niche scenario).
Trick Attack more than makes up the any lower base dps NIN may have.

So we could extend Huton after applying shadow fang and go the Dancing Edge route after that, instead of being in a situation where shadow fang is about to go off but so are Huton and Dancing edge.
It just feels clunky as hell. :/

That should never happen if you keep Huton with a reasonable duration.
There is no dps loss if you extend anywhere below 40s left on the Huton buff.

The rest is just Dancing Edge and Shadowfang. That's not much worse than before since Armor Crush only replaces Aeolian Edge some of the time.
That's pretty much part of the core of NIN gameplay though.
The combos don't do things for you automatically. You manage and monitor timers.
You follow a priority rather than a rotation.

It doesn't need combos to do all the work (such as refreshing both Shadowfang and Huton every 18s), the branching combos is a part of the gameplay and sets it apart.

What I do think it could use is a increased duration on Dancing Edge so Aeolian Edge gets more use.
Every minute you have to Dancing Edge 3 times, Armor Crush twice and Aeolian Edge once.

If Dancing Edge was extended, you could do 2 of each every minute which would be better.
Otherwise, I don't think it's clunky. I like MNK, it feels like a roller coaster ride but you've got to keep up the momentum.

NIN is more like driving on manual. Well, it's not super complex, but you've got to think a few combos ahead to optimize your timers.
Upside is that it's super flexible in any given fight once you know how to work it.
While maybe more punishing on player skill (probably debatable), it's certainly less punishing on fight mechanics.

[Aiselia]

Assassinate locks you for longer than Jumps now, just saying.

And is only used once every 40 seconds at under 20% health as opposed to every 30 seconds for the entire fight.

Just saying.

Really? You can hardly compare a skill that you use of the START of a combo with a skill you have to dedicate a whole combo.

Sorry, that doesn't make a difference. Step 1 and 2 of the DE combo will be the same whether it's DE, AE, or AC being used. Remember, you're not dedicating the whole combo to DE. You're dedicating the last hit to DE. If you did two AE combos instead of one DE and one AE, the difference isn't the entire combo. The difference is the damage between DE and AE, and that's only 60 potency assuming positional's hit.

Step 2 and 3 of the combo will also be the same regardless of whether it's DK or BS being used.

Position in the combo is irrelevant.

if Dragon Kick happens to Crit you lose nothing both skills have a 150 potency

BS is 150 potency period, auto-crit from behind (for argument's sake with crit increase assumed at 50%), that's 225 potency guaranteed in position. So you're either hitting at 150 potency or 225 potency.
DK is 100 potency not in position, 150 in position, 150 crit not in position, 225 crit in position.

At best, DK matches BS. If mechanics force you to move to the back of the boss, DK crit is hitting for a non-crit BS, while non-crit is just a flat loss. If mechanics force you to the side, BS is hitting for DK period.

BS is clearly the better DPS option if DK's debuff wasn't needed.

Doesn't change the fact that Ninjas do have the one positional that gets punished the most if missed.

Every minute.

Other jobs don't have that option because Monk work with "stances", they just suck up a straight DPS loss.

The math is arguable on how many ticks you'd have to have hit on ToD/Fracture to make clipping them for 80 TP not be a DPS loss.

Edit: Actually no, let me fix this. The math isn't very arguable. ToD has 20 potency initial, 25 per tick. At 3 seconds per tick, it would take about 5 ticks (15 seconds) to equal the potency of, for example, DK or Snakes, with positional. So your ToD would need to last 15 seconds in order to be equal in damage to two attacks. It would need another 1-2 ticks (3 to 6 more seconds) to hit Snap and True. It would take 8 ticks (24 seconds) to match a positional Bootshine (assuming 50% increase in damage on crit). Demolish is 70 + 7 ticks of 40, so 350 potency. ToD won't match that even if it runs its course.

If you have not allowed ToD to last at least 15 seconds, then it would be a DPS loss to refresh it partways through just because you're moving positions, because you used 80 TP earlier to do an attack effectively weaker than another GCD you could have used earlier. And you're using another 80 TP now, leading to faster TP issues.

[Pluvia]

When Ninjutsu locks you in position for as long as Jump, sure.

Actually, that's a great solution to Ninjutsus. Make them all have cast times.

Then you get to feel what it's like to have to time it like Jump AND it fixes mudra lag!

Apparently its ok for ninja to have trick attack fuck up and not apply the raid utility but everyone else np ninjas go fuck yourselves eh. No other melee has any fail mechanic you lose massive dps anymore every since they fixed Dragoons problems back in realm reborn why should we still have it as ninja

2nd of all you can't compare Jump and trick attack since you know trick attack is one of our raid utilities at least with jump it doesn't fail if the tank decides to twitch reaction.

obviously I should just stay out of these stupid threads since no one can think objectively.

[Aiselia]

2nd of all you can't compare Jump and trick attack

I didn't. I compared Jump and Ninjutsu. I didn't mention Trick Attack in the post that I brought up Jump.

A Jump fail can result in a 100% DPS loss from the DRG until they're revived and then the DPS loss from revive weakness. Or, depending on the fight, can result in a 100% DPS loss from the DRG for the rest of the fight.

And they have to use it every 30 seconds.

But nobody turned "Trick Attack fails" into a stereotype for the class.

[Pluvia]

I didn't. I compared Jump and Ninjutsu. I didn't mention Trick Attack in the post that I brought up Jump.

A Jump fail can result in a 100% DPS loss from the DRG until they're revived and then the DPS loss from revive weakness. Or, depending on the fight, can result in a 100% DPS loss from the DRG for the rest of the fight.

And they have to use it every 30 seconds.

But nobody turned "Trick Attack fails" into a stereotype for the class.

NO one with intelligence could give a crap over the LOL DRAGOON stupidity. GO back and look at what you quoted You quoted what you wanted and brought in jump comparisons When i did no such thing I was comparing 2 raid utilities Trick attack and Battle litany.
Obviously you fail to understand That when people who are asking for QoL buffs aren't asking for dps increases.

[Dante_V]

I have no issue with trick attack honestly. It's rare that I miss the buff honestly and it is frustrating but I like it as it is.

The real handicap with ninja is the mudra lag. It prevents the class form being played as intended and can significantly drop dps if it is substantial enough. The mudras need to be client side but I honestly don't think the developers care enough about the issue to fix it which is kind of sad because ninja is my favorite class.