Fending vs. Slaying accessories at this point in the game

[Ipkonfig]

Having played Paladin for 1 thru 13, I use to stance dance constantly, always boosted my DPS. I don't really see what giving stances off GCD, or having them not break combos would really do. So why not, other than the obvious homogenization of the tanks, what's the point of picking one if they end up being the same.

I do worry about the constant stream of Paladins complaining that they need a buff. For all of 2.X Paladin was the king of tanks and was always a sure slot as MT of a group. Hell, groups would run PLD/PLD, even in Final Coil you'd see a few, but never WAR/WAR. Now the tanks are more evenly spread and each one has a chance as MT why is it that Paladins think they deserve to be the best of the best? I am done with Paladin, having played it through all of coil I want to play WAR and DRK. I don't want it to go back to Paladin required.

[pandabearcat]

Not really the same discussion here.

More about how to maximize tank dps while keeping healers happy. PLD simply have fewer options to do so. Is it really bad? No not really. Much like religion, people like to rant on and on about their minute differences however. It is all of little consequence compared to playstyle and raid comp.

Having backup fending is a good idea - but like always left side is more important for tank survivability than right side, and frankly the difference between full 210 and full 190 fending is like, 1k or so. So completely unnecessary to buy fending eso gear imo.

[Phoenicia]

Few quesetions/points:

(1) Isn't Deliverance exactly the reason why the WHM would have to go back to healing earlier? I've not really used my WAR at all but I remember that the Wrath stacks could be used for damage reduction. Tanking an AOE pack in Deliverance, you've got less HP, you're healed for less on top of the fact that you already have no innate damage reduction, and then you aren't using Wrath for Inner Beast. The Dark Knight for example could have Grit (20%), Shadowskin (20%) and Shadow Wall (30%) giving about 55% damage reduction for the first 10 seconds, half of what you will be taking.

Besides, the point is about whether it's better for the WHM to dps or for the WAR to dps. You should be comparing maximum WAR dps in deliverance to the maximum WHM dps that can be achieved when the WAR is pure VIT and going full defensive in his skill usage. Comparing a WAR in dps mode to a WHM that has to heal a WAR in dps mode is nonsense. So the question becomes, how long can a WAR hold out in full defensive mode before a WHM has to heal the WAR?

(2) IIRC Berzerk is not +50% damage. It is +50% attack power. This was a long time ago but it was calculated to be worth +20% final damage. Unless the skill has changed?

(3) Holy+Aero3+Assize actually gives the WHM higher total AOE potency than the old uncapped Holy. Holy itself is nerfed but WHM AOE dps has improved in terms of potency. It only starts to be worse than 2.x Holy spam after the 7th or 8th target, for a fight lasting about 20 seconds.

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Unrelated, but on a PLD with Hallowed Ground (100% for 10s) > Sentinel+Rampart (52% for 10s) we're already at 20 seconds. Perhaps that's why I put more value on WHM AOE dps than WARs do.

lol This is unwantingly turning into my shlong is bigger than yours. It is not like a WHM DPSing means the tank wouldn't and shouldn't DPS. It is definitely not either, or. And I like to have the best of both!

My original point was when a tank goes STR instead of VIT, they lose 2~3k HP which is less than 1 Cure/Physic worth of heal. And no mitigation is lost. All it results is literally 1 GCD of DPS turned into Cure/Physic.

However, I will reply to those points with counter points that are relevant:

(1) My "rotation" incorporated WAR's strongest Defensive. Then you also said it here, Defiance does not directly reduce damage. For Defiance to work, WAR has to receive the heals. That is the main reason WAR stance dances. Defiance is very dynamic in the way it mitigates damage since it has two elements, increased max HP which is only beneficial when you are already full or getting Stoneskin or % heals (which were removed from the game), and increased healing received which is only relevant if you are getting healed by spells! Abilities like Assize aren't affected by Defiance. WAR slipping into deliverance after establishing initial hate usually means they probably got hit and already lost the 25% bonus HP while both the tank and WHM are positioning for AoE.

There is almost no situation where a WAR will use IB in an AoE pack. It comes down to WAR using other defensives and self-recovery. In my examples they are vengeance and Blood Bath. Since WAR is doing massive AoE damage, the self healing is insane. Which brings up CD synergy which I'll bring up later.

Also in my second scenario, the WAR keeps defiance up and uses Unchained instead. But since the WHM is doing DPS and Assize doesn't get added healing from Defiance, WAR staying in Defiance serves no purpose other than overly ridiculous aggro generation. Oh and the access to a heal from Equilibrium letting the heal DPS 2 or 3 GCDs more.

(2) Berserk is 50% attack power increase. It translates roughly to ~50% damage increase according the damage formula found here. You can also test it yourself by using the same skill on a dummy and you'll see the ~50% increase. Also on average Equilibrium heals my WAR for 3.7k without zerk, and 5.2~5.5k with.

Berserk is the strongest burst CD in the game. I don't know where you saw it was calculated to be worse than cross classed Blood for Blood and Raging Strikes.

WAR toolkit synergy with itself is simply the best in the game. Anything a WAR does compliments everything else he does in ridiculous ways. For example Berserk adds amplifies everything you do and multiplies at a base level because it's a stat increase instead of just a damage bonus. Blood Bath heals of a % of the damage you do, benefits greatly from WAR's higher overall damage. Vengeance (while reduces damage received) has a counter effect, gets a bonus from zerk, and ends up healing you for non-negligible, albeit small, amount of HP adding to its defensive effectiveness. These combined elements will make a WAR last almost as long as a PLD throwing all of its CDs with HG before needing a heal.

(3) Healer mains have tested healer classes' DPS and proven that SCH has the highest AoE with Bane+Miasma II+Shadow Flare, then WHM comes second with Holy+Aero3+Assize and AST comes last since they only have Gravity which is a targeted Holy. Single target it's WHM > SCH > AST.

And so far my WAR, and DRK to an extent, have never been outDPS'd by a healer in any AoE encounter I've been in. But personal experience may only mean that I've never been group with a really good healer.

Your last point IS related to the topic.

Yes, PLD can give you so much breathing room to AoE as a WHM. But since it is a garbage class (j/k) and does literally 0 AoE DPS, the least it can do is give others more breathing space to do more damage! As a matter of fact, PLD is the BEST TANK when it comes to letting other classes do additional damage. Remember the cover trick in T13? Hallowed Ground gives BOTH healers at least 10 seconds of DPS freedom even in the toughest encounters. PLD gives me the feeling that I have more "control" over a fight than either of the other tanks. Specially when stun, silence and pacification work!

On another note, I appreciate WHMs that try to AoE. And if the WHM requests that I put fending on so he can maximize DPS, I will gladly do it. I am not underestimating WHM DPS, but I wouldn't overestimate it either. But I definitely would not underestimate tank DPS.

[Iagainsti]

(1) My "rotation" incorporated WAR's strongest Defensive. Then you also said it here, Defiance does not directly reduce damage. For Defiance to work, WAR has to receive the heals. That is the main reason WAR stance dances. Defiance is very dynamic in the way it mitigates damage since it has two elements, increased max HP which is only beneficial when you are already full or getting Stoneskin or % heals (which were removed from the game), and increased healing received which is only relevant if you are getting healed by spells! Abilities like Assize aren't affected by Defiance. WAR slipping into deliverance after establishing initial hate usually means they probably got hit and already lost the 25% bonus HP while both the tank and WHM are positioning for AoE.

Thank you for pointing this out to the herd^^^ so many ppl do not comprehend Defiance stance is all about heals received, not just being a War version of Shield Oath.

[Giantbane]

(2) Berserk is 50% attack power increase. It translates roughly to ~50% damage increase according the damage formula found here. You can also test it yourself by using the same skill on a dummy and you'll see the ~50% increase. Also on average Equilibrium heals my WAR for 3.7k without zerk, and 5.2~5.5k with.

You should double check that formula you linked. A very strong portion (the first term) comes from Weapon Damage and Weapon Damage alone. Attack Power in that formula is represented by STR. Then there's another small term that is from just DTR or DTR* WD.. So STR (attack power) definitely does not effect the entire damage calculation. Increasing AP 50% shouldn't come close to an increase of damage by 50%.

I had seen previous tests ballpark it around 40%, but given the weight of the WD & DTR components of that formula that may actually be a bit high. (although it really depends on your STR/WD ratio).

Equilibrium (and second wind) may only be dependent on attack power and not weapon damage, which would explain why it might give closer to the 1.5x boost from berserk.

[Launched]

You should double check that formula you linked. A good 27% of damage on weapon skills comes from Weapon Damage and Weapon Damage alone. Attack Power in that formula is represented by STR. Then there's a 2.5% contribution from DTR. So STR (attack power) only comes into play for about 70% of total damage according to that formula.

Which would put berserk at something closer to a 30% damage increase, not 50%. I had seen previous tests ballpark it around 40%, but those were so long ago I don't remember them and they may have given inflated results if that formula still holds up.

Equilibrium (and second wind) may only be dependent on attack power and not weapon damage, which would explain why it might give closer to the 1.5x boost from berserk.

http://i.imgur.com/zHBYl66.png

Went from ~600 damage per Heavy Swing to ~900. 500 to 750 on autoattacks. It's a 50% increase, or really close to it. Incredibly easy to test.

[Giantbane]

http://i.imgur.com/zHBYl66.png

Went from ~600 damage per Heavy Swing to ~900. 500 to 750 on autoattacks. It's a 50% increase, or really close to it. Incredibly easy to test.

Didn't used to work that way, must have changed it from 2.0. And definitely isn't represented by the formula linked.

9 swings also may not be enough to establish proof.

[Asierid]

I must have missed the part where holy has a pretty hefty DR on damage now...

You're already down to 140 potency on the 3rd enemy. Meanwhile...Steel Cyclone and Overpower are doing full damage on everything, especially with zerk running (And Internal Release. Every good WAR loves some Release). The only thing you really have going for you is Aero 3, which you'll be healing by the time it needs to be reapplied. This is accounting for the fact that you're with a WAR that knows what's up and has cool downs running on top of your boosted Regen/Medica with Seal.

Defiance, Deliverence, you still are not beating a STR WAR or even a DRK in AoE DPS. You'd still be hard pressed if they were running full on VIT. Sorry guys.

You got PLD beat by a mile though. Cheer up.

[Phoenicia]

Didn't used to work that way, must have changed it from 2.0. And definitely isn't represented by the formula linked.

9 swings also may not be enough to establish proof.

From my experience as a WAR main since 2.0, Berserk has always been a 50% damage increase for all intents and purposes. Eyeing the numbers isn't hard, and has always shown a near 50% increase in my damage every time I used Berserk. (IB used to crit 600 at il70, 900 with berserk).

You got PLD beat by a mile though. Cheer up.

My pet turtle beats PLD in AoE though.