The positive Astrologian thread!

[TatoRazzino]

People don't know the difference between criticism and bashing things with misinformation. People need to play AST better, that's a fact; just look at every thread about the job's flaws and at least half of the complaints will be based on bad examples of cooldown usage or dumb ways to apply the buffs. Most of the other half of the complains will be based on people assuming that AST needs to do something it doesn't, which is replace SCH or WHM in a party to perform the 2.x meta; that's also dumb, since a new job always requires new strategies. If you take that out of criticism, there's almost nothing left for debate. I don't think AST needs a reworking and I don't think it has problems that need immediate fixing; WHM and SCH also have "broken" aspects, like bad traits for example, and they do their job just fine.

[Cynfael]

People don't know the difference between criticism and bashing things with misinformation. People need to play AST better, that's a fact; just look at every thread about the job's flaws and at least half of the complaints will be based on bad examples of cooldown usage or dumb ways to apply the buffs. Most of the other half of the complains will be based on people assuming that AST needs to do something it doesn't, which is replace SCH or WHM in a party to perform the 2.x meta; that's also dumb, since a new job always requires new strategies. If you take that out of criticism, there's almost nothing left for debate. I don't think AST needs a reworking and I don't think it has problems that need immediate fixing; WHM and SCH also have "broken" aspects, like bad traits for example, and they do their job just fine.

It's tough to argue against the math, Tato. I can't credibly claim that my raid group accurately represents most of the other groups out there, but our numbers are consistently higher when I or anyone else plays the SCH/WHM combo than with anything involving AST.

While you may or may not be tempted to throw the "well, the AST players need to get better" line, this experience is hardly unique on the forums. Many of us have been playing for over a year and have cleared every raid that the 2.x series had to offer. I seriously doubt that we collectively have a L2P issue when it comes to this Job. Much more likely that AST just produces less for equivalent effort. That is what I want to see addressed, as I believe that things are more fun with the Jobs in a given role at least have their own niches.

[Ghishlain]

Well might as well remove this thread since it turned into another criticism thread.

I've been an active participant in the discussion of this thread for the last few pages. I don't see a reason to close down the thread because it hasn't been "yay, AST is awesome!", but at the same time there hasn't been any raw negativity either. It's been a fairly civil discussion regarding specific facts and opinions of AST. Most people who are passionately discussing AST-buffs do in fact enjoy AST, but they see some flaws that could use some obvious changes to make AST more competitive. I know I personally enjoy the job as a whole - AST is extremely engaging, challenging, and fun. I just wish the reward ratio was better for the amount of work I have to do.

To use another fighting game example - there will always be low tier and high tier characters. But a mark of good balance is when those low tier characters, despite being low tier, are still competitive in nature.

While the AST kit is functional, it would be doing it a disservice to say its competitive when compared to the items WHM and SCH bring to the table. The goal is to not bring AST to God-like levels that some pro-AST players believe the intent is, but to bring it up enough so that any combination of healers will function for any progression group looking at high end play. At that point, you leave it to the players to decide how they want to shape their group.

At this juncture we have seen about five to six A3S clears (the current highest cleared content) and unfortunately, none of them have seen an AST as far as I can see (though every other job / class in the game has had representation). This is indicative of ASTs competitiveness in the high-end progression scene and should indicate to S-E that a few small changes are required for AST.

To use a more specific example, let's consider a post from everyone's favorite poster on the forum:

I do not understand your issue? I double astro heal A1-A4 without issue all the time. Also have enough mana to keep my 3 dots up along with the utility of our cards which from my own experiences is another 150-170 dps unless you get a unlucky spreak and pull nothing but bole. I easily contribute 200-300 dps from my dots and a malefic cast every now and then along with arrow/balance/spear on my brother who plays a machinist he normally clocks another 150-160 dps through an entire run which is on par with scholar personal dps.

On SCH
I've clocked 520 personal DPS on Oppressor with Selene out and an i180 weapon in A1
I've clocked 800+ personal DPS in A2 using Selene and an i180 weapon
I've clocked about 420 DPS in A3 using Eos w/ 52% Overheal (which basically means I can afford to use Selene and be YAY, more buffs!) and an i180 weapon
^ All examples with me paired with a DF'd healing partner

If the best AST can bring to the table is 460 DPS which includes their buffs (and we seriously don't know how accurate that 150-160 additional DPS via buffs may actually be) and I can basically do that as a SCH alone and still continue to buff my party with Selene (who, if you look back at the last few pages of discussion, we've theorized can be between 90-180 group DPS), what does that speak of the dichotomy between AST and SCH?

Again, I will re-iterate. The "please-buff"-AST isn't looking for buffs to make AST God-like, they're looking for buffs to make them competitive with their WHM and SCH counterparts. Bonus points to S-E if they can continue to make AST healing even more unique too.

[Galadrium]

The Ewer card description was changed when it is applied to the Dark Knight. Anyone know yet what exactly was changed?

[Noira]

I got shamed for using Noc stance in A1 normal ._..

Sorry but call me bad call me stubborn IDC but if I'm paired with a whm I will go into noc stance. (and no the WHM did NOT carry I did most of the tank healing while they focused on party and I did the buffing (had to ewer the whm so many times because they kept going out of mana for some odd reason despite rarely any damage occuring, switched to regen stance due to the dps causing too many wipes however.)).

I had to solo heal my first A1 normal because the other healer dc'd at the beginning of the oppressor fight and noc stance was a life saver for topping the party off, I only ran out of mp towards the end when the fight was over.

[Galadrium]

The Ewer card description was changed when it is applied to the Dark Knight. Anyone know yet what exactly was changed?

[TatoRazzino]

Snip

Your numbers will always be higher when you play WHM/SCH if you're using the 2.x meta strategies. Those strategies don't exist in the game code, but are emergent patterns of playstyle that come with time. If you apply the same strategies with AST, you won't get the same numbers. That's something true for every video game and it has nothing to do with the AST job. My raid group has been getting worse results in A1 Savage because I'm playing SCH. We can clear Faust, but my WHM healing style does not allow me breathing room to go into Cleric Stance. He's not using the 2.x meta, so the WHM/SCH pairing is hurting the group; with AST I'll be able to back him up more with heals and this will give us both breathing room to DoT. I have cleared everything there is to clear in 2.x with both WHM and SCH and have been playing AST since 3.0 early access.

[TatoRazzino]

The Ewer card description was changed when it is applied to the Dark Knight. Anyone know yet what exactly was changed?

The Ewer card changed. It's not good on DRK anymore, because that MP draining stance you guys use prevents any MP refreshing.

[TatoRazzino]

Snip

This is something I think everyone needs to stop saying, in my opinion. In 2.x, DRG was the outcast that no one wanted in their raidgroups because it didn't add any raid utility and couldn't outdps anyone. Did they "fix" it? No. They made minor changes and addressed the broken parts – there were mechanics that made it impossible to clear because DRGs would die no matter what. That didn't make DRG competitive. Because it doesn't need to be. Raid progression groups, like I've been saying since forever, use 2.x metas, because it's easier and doesn't require any learning curve other than the fight itself. AST doesn't adapt in ANY way to the 2.x meta, and it doesn't have to adapt. It's FINE that there are no A3S clears with AST. There were A1S and A2S first week clears with AST. I daresay 90% of the groups won't get there no matter what you do. You could play Jesus with my group and they won't raise their DPS.

[Bovinity]

Your numbers will always be higher when you play WHM/SCH if you're using the 2.x meta strategies. Those strategies don't exist in the game code, but are emergent patterns of playstyle that come with time. If you apply the same strategies with AST, you won't get the same numbers. That's something true for every video game and it has nothing to do with the AST job. My raid group has been getting worse results in A1 Savage because I'm playing SCH. We can clear Faust, but my WHM healing style does not allow me breathing room to go into Cleric Stance. He's not using the 2.x meta, so the WHM/SCH pairing is hurting the group; with AST I'll be able to back him up more with heals and this will give us both breathing room to DoT. I have cleared everything there is to clear in 2.x with both WHM and SCH and have been playing AST since 3.0 early access.

Still trying to go with that, "I played poorly on SCH, therefore AST is fine." argument, I see.