Paladin Adjustments (3.?)

[Phoenicia]

...it would answer the SwO aggro issue while maintaining the same damage output.

Why does Sword Oath "aggro issue" need an answer? Pre-3.0 PLD had problems "not" pulling aggro of the main tank when they were trying to push DPS as off tanks.

You want PLD to hold hate, the problem with PLD hate is that their main enmity combo, not only has lowest potency of the enmity combos, but also has the weakest multiplers. Savage Blade and Rage of Halone have a x3 and x5 multipliers respectively while the other tanks' combos have 3.5 and 5.5 multipliers. The other tanks hold hate in DPS stances because they generate far more aggro than they need to.

I can't actually be the only person that likes clemency, right?

Clemency is nice and has its uses but it's situational. I think Clemency is great. People don't like situational and want it to work all the time and that's the problem.

[FallenWings]

Why does Sword Oath "aggro issue" need an answer? Pre-3.0 PLD had problems "not" pulling aggro of the main tank when they were trying to push DPS as off tanks.

A Sword Oath PLD can still hold hate but would have to spam Rage of Halone like they did before. Naturally nowadays PLD's want to be using Royal Authority and Goring Blade more which as you guessed; doesn't have Increased Enmity. Therein lies the issue of tanking with Sword Oath while dealing optimal damage.

A Warrior can do so because their highest potency is ON their main Enmity Skill which they would rotate all the time to deal optimal damage. This is further increased by Maim and Deliverance also indirectly increasing their Enmity by directly increasing the damage of their Enmity skills. Sword Oath does not create the same effect for Enmity because it is just flat 50 potency.

A Dark Knight can do it because... That's kind of their thing. A DA Power Slash generally seals the deal for enmity in grit and out of grit. Sauce it with Darkside having the same aforementioned affect on their enmity skills and you can see why the two are capable of holding aggro in their DPS stances.

This is true of FoF, as much as it's true of Darkside or Maim or Deliverance.

It's much more appropriate to compare FoF with Berserk and lolBlood Weapon since their application is more aligned.

SwO is somewhat equivalent to Maim and Darkside without the benefit of directly affecting your enmity skills.
Although I may be wrong now due to our overall increased average potency per GCD. I still think that 50 pot is much fatter than 5%.

[Phoenicia]

Snip.

You missed my point. Any % increase to PLD's SwO will throw them ahead of WAR in terms of DPS. Do the math. Don't fix a problem by creating another (fixing aggro issues by upsetting tank DPS).

PLD's aggro in SwO AND ShO is behind the other tanks not only because the other tanks have higher potency on their aggro combos but also because of the enmity skills multipliers themselves. Here are the multipliers against their counterparts:

Savage Blade is 200 x3. Skull Sunder is 200 x3.5, Spinning Slash is 220 x3.5.
Rage of Halone is 260 x5. Butcher's Block is 280 x5.5. Power Slash is 300 x5.5 (or x6.5 with DA, not worth blowing DA for).
Circle of Scorn is 250x3 (only class that involves its AoE in its ST rotation is PLD). Shield Swipe is 210 x3 (I think, it's the only skill that I haven't personally tested) but is also a DPS loss.

I think SE thought that in a full rotation of over 22.5s you have GB > RoH > RA you have 2 Savage Blades and Rage of Halone and ~1 Circle of Scorn while spamming Shield Swipe would be equal to the other tanks. But using Shield Swipe makes you lose DPS and the enmity gain is not enough.

A real fix to PLD is not to increase their DPS, but fix their enmity multipliers. The enmity combo needs to match the basic multiplier of the other tanks. No damage potency needs to be added.

If you want to compare buffs for DPS comparisons, let's look at it this way:

PLD has FoF which is similar to Berserk. DRK has no real DPS CD. Blood Weapon is an MP recovery and the 10% speed boost is a bad joke from SE. lol
DRK has Darkside which is similar to Maim. PLD has no version of a constant DPS buff.
PLD has Sword Oath which is comparable to Deliverance. DRK has no comparable DPS stance.

[FallenWings]

You missed my point. Any % increase to PLD's SwO will throw them ahead of WAR in terms of DPS. Do the math. Don't fix a problem by creating another (fixing aggro issues by upsetting tank DPS).

PLD's aggro in SwO AND ShO is behind the other tanks not only because the other tanks have higher potency on their aggro combos but also because of the enmity skills multipliers themselves. Here are the multipliers against their counterparts:

Savage Blade is 200 x3. Skull Sunder is 200 x3.5, Spinning Slash is 220 x3.5.
Rage of Halone is 260 x5. Butcher's Block is 280 x5.5. Power Slash is 300 x5.5 (or x6.5 with DA, not worth blowing DA for).
Circle of Scorn is 250x3 (only class that involves its AoE in its ST rotation is PLD). Shield Swipe is 210 x3 (I think, it's the only skill that I haven't personally tested) but is also a DPS loss.

I think SE thought that in a full rotation of over 22.5s you have GB > RoH > RA you have 2 Savage Blades and Rage of Halone and ~1 Circle of Scorn while spamming Shield Swipe would be equal to the other tanks. But using Shield Swipe makes you lose DPS and the enmity gain is not enough.

A real fix to PLD is not to increase their DPS, but fix their enmity multipliers. The enmity combo needs to match the basic multiplier of the other tanks. No damage potency needs to be added.

If you want to compare buffs for DPS comparisons, let's look at it this way:

PLD has FoF which is similar to Berserk. DRK has no real DPS CD. Blood Weapon is an MP recovery and the 10% speed boost is a bad joke from SE. lol
DRK has Darkside which is similar to Maim. PLD has no version of a constant DPS buff.
PLD has Sword Oath which is comparable to Deliverance. DRK has no comparable DPS stance.

aaaaaand you missed my point!

To quote my first post:

Quick thoughts:

Sword Oath also increases enmity by 10%. Since the other tanks have their damage increase in the form of % damage up across skills which inadvertently affects their enmity skills as well, it would answer the SwO aggro issue while maintaining the same damage output.

Sword Oath additional damage potency on auto attacks have increased enmity. /shrug

However if the Enmity modifiers are true, then you make a valid point that those multipliers would indeed be a large factor in PLD's having issue holding hate in Sword Oath. Increased Shield Swipe multiplier however I think would not have a reliable affect as having Rage of Halone increased due to its RNG nature.

... and I don't think adding an enmity multiplier on Royal Authority is any fun. Granted that it may help, I don't necessarily think that increased multipliers alone would be enough to push optimal SwO PLD MT Dps without also directly affecting their ShO enmity to lolworthy levels. Perhaps Sword Oath re-tooled to be a 10% damage done instead of the auto-attack potencies along with buffing enmity of RoH combo? Feels too... Boring.

Idk man. Too many variables to consider.

[Phoenicia]

Snip.

Sword Oath DPS is hardly 8% behind WAR's Deliverance DPS. Putting an aggro multiplier on all of its DPS will make it impossible to OT without pulling threat as a PLD.

Fixing the enmity multipliers on the main enmity combo is the most realistic solution. PLD will still be behind the other tanks (as it should I guess?) but will be far ahead of the DPS. It will make SwO tanking as possible as non-Girt or Deliverance tanking are.

SwO grants the PLD a rough increase of 11~15% in DPS based on your sword's AA speed. Removing the auto-attack bonus for a flat 10% boost is a nerf. I also like the uniqueness of SwO's way of increasing DPS. It's not flat, nor does it grant access to extra abilities.

P.S. The mi'qote in your signature is provoking me! What happens if she touches me?

[SirTaint]

Sword Oath DPS is hardly 8% behind WAR's Deliverance DPS. Putting an aggro multiplier on all of its DPS will make it impossible to OT without pulling threat as a PLD.
o

That depends on the emn modifier. X2-3 on Royal would not lead to any agro problems, same with goring. Both would help tremendously while SwO tanking. x5 or 5.5 would be dumb.

[elemental10]

snip

What anime is that? I hope they have very good PLOT besides the ones I'm seeing....

The enmity Modifier on Rage of Halone is x5. While Butcher's Block and Heavy Slash is x5.5.

THIS IS JOB DISCRIMINATION.

#PLDPRIDE

[Phoenicia]

What anime is that? I hope they have very good PLOT besides the ones I'm seeing....

The enmity Modifier on Rage of Halone is x5. While Butcher's Block and Heavy Slash is x5.5.

THIS IS JOB DISCRIMINATION.

#PLDPRIDE

Yeah, screw job discrimination! I call for equality!

You mean in my signature? That is Black Hanekawa from Bakemonogatari. It's a great anime that I enjoyed a lot, but it requires and extent of knowledge of Japanese culture and language as it is very heavy on dialogue, kanji and word play and puns. The scene I'm using in the signature is actually the main character playing a tongue twister full of the syllabus "Na" so that she says "nya" a lot.