WAR love is out of hand. Twelve forbid the other Tanks stand out in any way.

[Kaith]

It makes them unbalanced because the WAR can also slot into the MT slot without any issues too. When WAR/WAR is arguably the best configuration to take into engame content then either WAR is signicantly better than the other two or the content is poorly designed.

[Phoenicia]

Multiple snips.

WAR is ahead of DRK in DPS by 50%? You must be playing with really bad DRKs if they can't pull more than 600. There are MANY parses of DRKs pulling 900+. With slashing debuff, 900 x 1.11 = 1000. Same as WAR. PLD is hardly behind in OT DPS.

Where are you pulling your numbers from? I provided many mathematical proves that you can do the same raid DPS without a WAR in group. Parses and videos were also provided.

You speak as if WAR is the only class in the game with the slashing debuff. What about NIN? Btw, NIN is the second highest DPS in the entire game and they provide the best raid DPS buffs, there is no reason not to include one. PLD/DRK + NIN function EXACTLY AS WELL as any WAR comb.

WAR is the best OT, PLD/DRK are the best MTs with the preference depending on fight. You're trying to stick a square peg in a round hole.

Please stop making these ignorant comments. WAR mitigation is 7% ahead of PLD (at the cost of 4% behind in effective healing). DRK provides the same DPS as WAR and PLD provides far more utility than WAR. Nothing an OT WAR does he can't do as MT. Based on the fight, the three tanks perform equally well in either role (OT or MT). Again look around the forums and you'll find the numbers since "math doesn't lie".

[Disc]

WAR MT is not as effective as PLD without a PLD for support, or DRK vs magical.(assuming MNK) The argument could be made for WAR MT over DRK in A2S, but the AoE damage DRK put out make WAR+WAR comp less enticing. Especially with the slower LB bar in a fight where you barely build LB as is.

Please stop making these ignorant comments. WAR mitigation is 7% ahead of PLD (at the cost of 4% behind in effective healing). DRK provides the same DPS as WAR and PLD provides far more utility than WAR. Nothing an OT WAR does he can't do as MT. Based on the fight, the three tanks perform equally well in either role (OT or MT). Again look around the forums and you'll find the numbers since "math doesn't lie".

WAR will only come out ahead of PLD in terms of mitigation if you're counting the average based on spamming mitigation abilities & have a PLD in the party using Rage of Halone to debuff the mob at the cost of damage. You're much better using PLD as MT in that situation & allowing the WAR to more realistically spam Fell Cleave.

DRK can come close in terms of DPS or even do more in certain instances, sure. They're weaker than WAR in terms of physical mitigation too. But the only time this is an issue in practice is A2S. The tanks do not perform equally well, they each have their niche.

[Kaith]

I don't see how they are inflated.

If I do 830 DPS on PLD and the WAR does 1050-1100 DPS then that lines up with my numbers. The DRK getting the slashing debuff in one scenario but not in the other makes up for the rest.

[Disc]

I don't see how they are inflated.

If I do 830 DPS on PLD and the WAR does 1050-1100 DPS then that lines up with my numbers. The DRK getting the slashing debuff in one scenario but not in the other makes up for the rest.

You're not using controlled testing or factual values. You are using heresy to form an opinion.

[Kaith]

You're not using controlled testing or factual values. You are using heresy to form an opinion.

Are you saying that the PLD number is too low or that the WAR number is too high? I was using the WAR parse numbers provided by someone in a thread on here. The PLD numbers I can go verify right now if you need.

EDIT: It was this post http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post3205434. The links seem to be broken right now but it had the WAR at 1054 DPS iirc which lined up what with other people had told me and previous parses I had seen. The PLD damage lined up exactly with what I did on a dummy parse. So it seemed credible enough.

[Disc]

Are you saying that the PLD number is too low or that the WAR number is too high? I was using the WAR parse numbers provided by someone in a thread on here. The PLD numbers I can go verify right now if you need.

Uncontrolled tests do not provide valuable numbers. You need the exact same gear/food/composition/skill/attributes/time, and both using equally optimum rotations.

You are overexaggerating the STR debuff. But yeah. PLD is very slightly ahead of WAR in physical mitigation, specially if they can time Sheltron with a tower shield. Also it is not about WAR "spamming" mitigation as much as WAR putting more oomf when mitigating each buster. I'm not arguing who is better though. I am saying the discrepancies (outside of DRK's gap between magic and physical) are negligible in all cases.

Also WAR MT / PLD OT has an overall DPS increase over the opposite. Trust me. Been this way since 2.0.

Halone STR down is basically a physical Storm's Path, it's huge. Ignoring stance against tankbusters a WAR is looking at IB+Raw 36%, IB+Raw+Veng 55.2%, or IB+Veng 44%. A PLD has Rampart+Shel 36%, Rampart+Shel+Sent 61.6%, or Rampart+Sent 52%. You could argue the value of Halone vs Storm's, but then you're looking at it on a per fight basis with emphasis on handicapped PLD. PLD OT sustained damage due to auto-attack bonus has potential, but PLD is prone to TP issues WAR lack. PLD OT in the past has only been more beneficial due to Unchained resulting in a lower DPS loss for WAR tank, and more enmity than a Sword Oath PLD.

[Phoenicia]

Snip.

You totally chose to ignore Thrill of Battle. A direct increase of 20% EHP. If you think EHP is not mitigation you're just wasting time on technicalities. IB+ToB is an EHP increase of 50%. IB+TOB+Veng is an increase of 114%. IB+ToB+Veng+Raw is a ridiculous increase of 167%.

Outside of Inner Beast, Defiance and Deliverance have no damage mitigation difference. WAR can slip into deliverance whenever he's not about to get his face rearranged and handed to him for extra DPS.

TP issues in a real fight almost do not exist. 1) All fights currently have breaks, all of them. Exceptions were T8 and T11. And they don't matter any more. 2) This is a team game. All of the melee DPS are prone to TP issues and your BRD/MCH WILL recover your TP. Believe it or not, it's how PLDs got through in the past.

[Kaith]

Uncontrolled tests do not provide valuable numbers. You need the exact same gear/food/composition/skill/attributes/time, and both using equally optimum rotations.

The quoted link was the same person using the same gear and food. It had PLD at 836 DPS and WAR at 1054, he has since removed the parses though.

The PLD numbers I can reproduce myself

Gear - http://i.imgur.com/CY5GO3P.jpg (The top non-meld accessory is slaying, the i176 is purely because the melded accessories are i150)
Sword Oath Parse - http://i.imgur.com/AHa7Jo0.jpg (Not a care given to maintaining enmity)
Shield Oath Parse - http://i.imgur.com/XfG5Y2S.jpg (This was rotating all 3 combos)

The next combo would have put me TP dead.

Food is just NQ Deep-Fried Okeanis (30 SkS, 10 Det) because it's what i had laying around in my invent so not optimum. Obviously slashing debuff is not present. Nor is the STR party buff.

https://youtu.be/XhLfcwsqeOE
Video of parse from pld/drk/war in their OT role same gear, all with str pt bonus, same food slashing debuff for pld/drk brought by a warrior outside of party, also goad/tp regen from machinist was used to parse all 3 over 5 mins.
For ppl too lazy to watch:
WAR 1021 dps
PLD 941 dps
DRK 970 dps

Gear can also be seen at the begin of the video

So basically that breaks down to the below I think

WAR 1021
DRK (with debuff) - 970
PLD (with debuff) - 941
DRK (without debuff) - 881
PLD (without debuff) - 855

Would need numbers when people are MT'ing to work out total composition damage. For Faust at least I did 714 DPS as PLD MT today with this gear (http://i.imgur.com/CY5GO3P.jpg). That was with Shield Oath up for 3 combos then switching to Sword Oath then switching back to Shield Oath at 6 stacks (which I could probably get away with not doing for a slight DPS increase)

Parses I've seen of MT WAR's on Faust were ~830-870 when filtered to just Faust damage but I have no idea on their gear.