WAR love is out of hand. Twelve forbid the other Tanks stand out in any way.

[karateorangutang]

I really don't think there is alot to argue here anymore. WAR has strong evidence showing it as the beat tank in both positions. Until SE does something I'll be sporting WAR because I won't bring anything to lower the chance of losing for 7 other people.

[Tila]

I really don't think there is alot to argue here anymore. WAR has strong evidence showing it as the beat tank in both positions. Until SE does something I'll be sporting WAR because I won't bring anything to lower the chance of losing for 7 other people.

What strong evidence? People have shown evidence that PLD is a better choice for OT in certain situations, that DRK is definatly better MT in certain situations, and that WAR is by no means the best choice for MT and OT all the time, but rather depending on the fight and raid composition.

Oh look, a savage raid with no warrior https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXACMfQpUqQ

[Phoenicia]

...

I think the problem isn't that evidence is there or not. The problem is people get too darn selective reading/hearing once they get an idea in their head and just refuse to see anything saying otherwise. They want to believe WAR is overpowered because every raid tries to stupidly include one and most people (including the WARs themselves) are used to WAR being in the OT spot. PLDs aren't happy they have to share their MT spot and DRKs feel they are the black duck of the tanks. All these problems are imaginary.

PLD is a friggin' good OT. DRK is the best tank in magical environment, and though it sucks in physical heavy fights, the content is heavily favoring them because of t he magic damage. WARs are excellent MTs and can do a better job than DRK or PLD depending on the fight. WAR MT and DRK/PLD OT really maximizes raid DPS. PLD and DRK compositions are great and can clear content just as well as any of the WAR combos. Also notice that the only tanks that aren't complaining are the ones that don't get to MT at all (WAR).

[Naelle]

This is getting ridiculous.

PLDs aren't happy they have to share their MT spot and DRKs feel they are the black duck of the tanks. All these problems are imaginary.

PLD is fine as it is. This crying about PLD not being the tank of choice anymore seriously needs to stop.

PLDs got so used to being the anointed chosen one godlike perfect OP MTs in all of ARR, now look at them running home crying to their mamas because the HW progression content has a lot of magic damage to emphasize the new tank job DRK.

It's not gonna hurt the PLD to share the MT spot occasionally, considering how they all hogged it all the way through 2.x, barring one occasion in t5.

Stop. Just stop.

None of these threads are concerned one bit about who is getting to be the main tank. I don't know any tanks that I play with that actually care about who main tanks. We choose our main tank per skill/encounter; The way it's supposed to be. The issue is that right now Warriors are above and beyond for pretty much every fight, leaving the other two jobs in their giant shadow. DPS is currently a major factor for tanks in end-game content. Having one tank be better at DPS is fine, but it can't be so far ahead that there is no choice to make. Warrior should be doing the highest damage; That's reflected in the way their stance changes work and I think that's rad. Numbers need to be more in line however, so that people don't have to take a Warrior if they don't want to.

While we're here in this thread, let's also address this whole physical tank/magical tank thing people seem to have gotten stuck on. I'm really not sure why people think that Dark Knight is so much better at tanking magical damage. One skill? Does Dark Mind alone really make them so much better at tanking magic tank busters? Let's take a look at the skills available shall we?

Warriors

In no particular order:

Inner Beast: 20% reduced damage. Solid, but also restores 100% of damage as HP and is a 300 potency attack. Cooldown? 5 stacks of Wrath (not long at all)
Raw Intuition: Guaranteed parry from the front. That's 20% reduced damage from all physical damage for 20 seconds. That's a long time.
Thrill of Battle: Increases max HP by 20% as well as healing for the amount. Very good self heal and extra padding for busters.
Equilibrium: Huge self heal and TP restore. Schwing. Only 60 second cooldown.
Vengeance: Reduce damage by 30% for 15 seconds. 120s recast. Also deals damage back, pretty cool.
Storm's Path: Half mention here, but reducing all damage dealt by the enemy by 10% is amazing.
Holmgang: Can't die for 6 seconds. Will leave you at 1hp if you don't get healed.

Dark Knight

Let's pay attention now

Shadowskin: 20% reduction for 20 seconds. 90 second recast. Exactly the same as Rampart
Reprisal: This one is a bit tricky. I like to use this with Dark Dance a few seconds before a big hit so I can have the proc ready. 10% less damage from all sources on target. Nice.
Dark Dance: Increases parry by 30%. 60 second recast. Parry is a 20% reduction in physical damage. Good, albeit a bit unreliable. Also can be used to gain Evasion through Dark Arts. Evasion is, of course, the best mitigation in the game as you take no damage. Even more unreliable though.
Dark Mind: 15% less damage from magical attacks for 10 whole seconds. Can be increased to 30% through DA. This is what makes them the magic tank over Paladin/Warrior? 60 second recast.
Shadow Wall: 30% reduced damage for 10 seconds on a 180 second timer. Same mitigation as Vengeance, same recast timer as Sentinel
Living Dead: Pretty cruddy if you ask me. Can't die button. Until it wears off anyway.

It's worth mentioning that Grit (tank stance) also reduces damage by 20%.

Paladin

Oh boy...

Sheltron: Blocks a single (usually auto attack) physical attack. 30 second recast. Restores a bit of MP which is nice.
Clemency: Nice heal that can be used on self or party member. 3 second cast and huge MP cost keep usage low. On global timer.
Rampart: 20% damage reduction for 20 seconds. 90 second recast. Same as Shadowskin
Sentinel: 40% reduction in damage for 10 seconds. 180 second recast
Bulwark: Increases block rate by 60% for 15 seconds. 180 second recast. Great for blocking physical damage. No effect on magic damage.
Hallowed Ground: Everyone's favorite can't die button. 10 second of immunity* on a 420 second timer. Longest recast of any tank skill.

Shield Oath, like Grit, also reduces all damage taken by 20%. Paladins are also the only Job that can use a shield for an additional source of physical mitigation. A little bit more reliable than Parry.

So, in the end, here's what we're left with:

Pure damage reduction:

Warrior: 2 skills. 20% and 30%
Paladin: 2 skills. 20% and 40%
Dark Knight: 2 skills. 20% and 30%

Physical only reduction:

Warrior: 1 skill. 100% parry* for 20 seconds. *From the front only
Paladin: 2 skills. 60% shield block for 15 second and a single block every 30 seconds.
Dark Knight: 1 skill. 30% parry for 20 seconds.

Magic only reduction:

Warrior: 0 skills.
Paladin: 0 skills.
Dark Knight: 1 skill. 15%* reduction for 10 seconds. *Can be increased to 30% with DA.

Can't Die Button

Warrior: 6 second duration. 180 second recast.
Paladin: 10 second duration. 420 second recast.
Dark Knight: 10 seconds after reaching 0 HP. 300 second recast.

After all of that, it really looks like all three tanks are very equally capable of mitigating and tanking any fight in the game equally. Dark Knight does have a single skill for magic damage but that hardly makes them the "Magic Tank". Defense and mitigation are not the issue here though, Offense is. As you can see, Paladin is not so far ahead of Warrior in terms of defense that it should be so far behind in offense. Each Job has the tool-kit required to survive fights in this game. Yes, they do it a bit differently, but they can all get the job done. That's the issue. Not all of the tanks can "get the job done" when it comes to DPS. I don't think anyone is asking for Warrior to get nerfed, or Dark Knight to get changed, or Paladin to get buffed. Those are words associated with being either too strong or too weak. What we're asking is that the offensive capability of the three tank Jobs to be brought in a bit tighter. The difference in offense should not be greater (or less than for that matter) than the difference in defense.

TL;DR

Nobody wants Warrior to be nerfed. Nobody is trying to take away your precious MT role that you covet so. If you want balance you need this:

Offense:

Warrior: 3
Dark Knight: 2
Paladin: 1

Defense:

Warrior: 1
Dark Knight: 2
Paladin: 3

Sadly, that's not what we have. We're closer to:

Offense:

Warrior: 4
Dark Knight: 2
Paladin: 1

Defense:

Warrior: 2
Dark Knight: 2
Paladin: 3

I hope people don't skim this and think this is a complaint about any one of the Jobs. I loved both Warrior and Paladin in 2.x and I've already leveled and love Dark Knight also. I just want them to be in balance with each other. Thanks for taking the time to read this and hopefully the poo-slinging will stop.

[Freyyy]

DRKs feel they are the black duck of the tanks

Well... I guess that's why we're Dark Knights.

http://instantcsi.com/

[karateorangutang]

Sigh, I'm not going to have this argument again.

I'll state it one more time. WAR brings more utility to a raid.

Clears are possible with any setup but war brings more to the table in a tanking spot in almost any situation if player skill is taken out of the equation. SE and SP affect so much and do so regardless of the mobs abilities. Ignoring this is just putting blinders on.

I am a tank. Not a paladin. Not a warrior. Not a dark knight. A tank and I will leverage all of them.

[Phoenicia]

Well... I guess that's why we're Dark Knights.

http://instantcsi.com/

Yay! A comrade-in-puns! Let's be friends, ~nya!

Sigh, I'm not going to have this argument again.

I'll state it one more time. WAR brings more utility to a raid.

Clears are possible with any setup but war brings more to the table in a tanking spot in almost any situation if player skill is taken out of the equation. SE and SP affect so much and do so regardless of the mobs abilities. Ignoring this is just putting blinders on.

I am a tank. Not a paladin. Not a warrior. Not a dark knight. A tank and I will leverage all of them.

Not arguing here. I am agreeing with you for the most part. But Storm Eye is not unique to WAR. Storm Path, while great, is overexaggerated. Storm Path alone is not "best utility in the game". Storm Path is versatile, but so is everything a SCH has. WAR is great, no one is denying it. PLD brings awesome utility as well. DRK is... the black duck? lol. It still brings great DPS. (DRK is still in a far better place than AST).

It is great you chose to play all three tanks, which is what I would do if Esoteric gear was shared. It is a fact that it isn't. It also is a fact that some people do not enjoy playing certain tank classes. For those people that do not want to play a certain class, they should not fret, they can still perform just as well as any of the other tanks. Just leave space and share the MT/OT spots.

[Tila]

The problem is that no one is really suggesting any viable way to fix this supposed problem. Buff PLD damage and all it does it make them the be all end all tank for anything but magic. Nerf WAR damage and they become useless. Nerf Storms Path and you now have no reason to bring a warrior ever. At most DRK could use a little more MT viability for physical MTing, but not by much.

If you can't really think of any fixes for a supposed issue, then the issue must not be that big of one. Scholar and DRG are more must have for their position than WAR is for tanking. Didn't every raid need a BRD too in ARR? Mountains are being made of mole hills.

[winsock]

PLD threads these days:
WAR has more dps, buff PLD dmg
WHM heals are better, buff clemency
SCH has better mitigation, buff divine veil.
DPS have better limit breaks, make ours do dmg.

I'd say queue the tiny violin, but would worry it would start more PLD whine threads about how the other guy has a bigger violin....

PLD is in no danger of becoming obsolete. If you don't like the unqiue strengths and weaknesses of PLD, play a different class. Be warned though, the class that you pick will not be the best at everything either.

[Tila]

big snip

I've yet to see anyone prove that DRK is notably behind Warrior in MT dps. You cant go on saying WAR is far ahead of others and then not have any evidence but hear say. The burden of proof falls on those saying the others suffer at the hands of WAR.

EDIT: And before its brought up, dummy parses aren't valid proof. Especially for tanks.