Who here is also burned out from farming?

[Reinha]

Yeah it would be nice to see less dungeons and primals and more new ideas.

No it wouldn't. Asking for new stuff is one thing but asking for a new system to replace the old is another. People who bought this game bought it for a reason, which certainly wasn't some unknown type of content that may or may not be implemented. It would be delusional to think the player base as a whole would be ok with losing any of the content they are used to.

As for the topic at hand, I'm not burned out in the slightest. In ARR I got to the point where I had seen all the content I planned to and just leveled alts before Heavensward, so I'm not even busy doing ARR stuff. Just perfectly happy with the game we have. If you guys are bored of the gear grind then why not, you know, stop grinding? There are other things to do than end game. Yet, if end game is all you want to do, there's also savage for those who find everything else a boring faceroll fest. This game has something for everyone: easy fast stuff for those with limited time and patience, easy but long grinds for those with more than average play time, and also hard content that takes a while to defeat for those who want to be challenged and find easy things and repetition boring. If nothing pleases you people, what do you want?

[Iromi]

snippy.

Think the whole point of this thread is that there are people who are tired of the same dungeons/roulette, 4 raids , primals, etc. ^^;

I do agree though, to an extent..the best way IS to let the sub run out...and don't come back until the game changes, if it doesn't, then don't come back. I know I am not coming back until they add some new gameplay/content/etc. I refuse to keep paying for the same patches reskinned..over and over.

1.23 was so much better, yes I went there lol. All my friends who asking if they should come back because they left due to the same rehashed content..heh..well, I told them no, don't bother, its STILL the same. >.<

[Xairos]

Disclaimer: Salty Post.

They really should just close the game. On the Official Forums there is a ratio of 10:1 of complainers to people happily playing the game that currently exists. SE can do nothing because everytime something new comes out, a swath of "fans" come out asking "Well why isnt there X or Y"? SE literally gives us an Inch and the OF asks for a Mile. SE tells us of what is to come, lays out a plan of how they want to lay the foundation of this game in its early years, OF complains that "we didn't see this coming".

I was there in FFXI where communication was next to none with SE. I was there for Moblin Maze Mongers where players could make their own content and then run it; Hardly anyone used it (as far as the more official forums, Killing Ifrit, was concerned). I was there for Trials of the Magian, content that gave us solo, farm-to-oblivion path and a grouping-less-farm-focused path and people complained. I was there when SE would just throw stuff in the game and say "Deal with it".

Listen: All MMOs in existence are Grinds. If, at anytime, you play with your sights set on a specific goal and then do content over and over to reach that goal then that is a grind. We all did it in Single Player RPGs for farming random battles, and we all do it here. If you play League, Heroes, DOTA, Hearthstone, Destiny, Monster Hunter, Pokemon, Tales of (Series), then you will eventually grind on something. It doesn't matter if it's Monster carves for the next piece of gear, individual games for an overall online rank, Walking a path over and over to hatch a perfect IV Pokemon, or farm easy battles to XP, it's all grinding.

Don't take your personal frustration at the whole of gaming out on MMOs when it is just following the modus operandi. And don't delude yourself into thinking that this game would magically be ten times better if SE just threw more content in the game that people would just ignore. As of today, SE is methodically placing content in the game that people can all participate in. They are learning, it's slow, but they are learning:

Remember Turn 3 in First Coil? They never did that again.
Remember how we wanted a reason to run the old CT content (pre-3.0, now it kinda sucks lol)? They gave us a reason.
Remember how we wanted a fun storyline to follow? They brought back Hildibrand from 1.0 and made it awesome!
They didn't have to do it. They could have just thrown more dungeons at us and made gear with mostly useless stats on it to keep us sifting among it all finding what we think we want. Sure the streamline is boring because we can clearly see what helps our class and what doesn't.

They are learning, but they are also building a foundation at the same time. They lost a ton of money on 1.0 and they need to rebuild. We are in the rebuilding phase.

If you lose a house and are building another one do you jump right into making a killer game room? No, you start at the foundation, the material, the basic floor plan, and plot of land to build on, etc. 2.0 is the plot of land. 3.0 is the foundation. If we set aside the Present-focused internet entertainment rage, I am sure we can find something in this game that tells us that they have somewhat of a different plan for content for players of all types who play current mmos.

While is is true that there is grind in every MMORPG (though blizzard managed to make it bearable in world of warcraft), few are the MMORPG that makes you grind several time the same content for different reasons. And that's what people are complaining about.

In 3.0 we had to farm the level 60 dungeons for both the ilvl 170 gear and the ilvl 200 gear. In 2.0 we had to farm fates for both leveling and getting a relic ... and the list goes on.

Im not saying this game is perfect. Not at all.

But, Blizzard designed the early days of WoW with tons of gear and deception. But the acceptable kind. I remember leveling a druid (because I wanted to do all things), and encountering their sets of "Of the Monkey" and "Of the Tiger" and thinking that I need to collect the Tiger set because I wanted to use the cat form exclusively and the bear form in emergencies. The deceptive part came, when I learned that I had to run the instances where the gear dropped over and over until I not only got the piece I wanted, but also got the RNG rolls of stats that I wanted. The random nature made it "exciting" but only as far as keeping me playing, not as far as giving me what I wanted. Eventually I wound up out-leveling the content and no needing to ever pick up that pieces that I set out searching for. Great design in keeping me playing, bad design in letting me reach my goal. Here in FFXIV know what piece to look for because they created categories for classes, not for stat grouping with RNG.

Is it as exciting? Not really. Meh design in keeping me playing, good design in letting me reach my goal.

[Stanelis]

Listen: All MMOs in existence are Grinds. If, at anytime, you play with your sights set on a specific goal and then do content over and over to reach that goal then that is a grind. We all did it in Single Player RPGs for farming random battles, and we all do it here. If you play League, Heroes, DOTA, Hearthstone, Destiny, Monster Hunter, Pokemon, Tales of (Series), then you will eventually grind on something. It doesn't matter if it's Monster carves for the next piece of gear, individual games for an overall online rank, Walking a path over and over to hatch a perfect IV Pokemon, or farm easy battles to XP, it's all grinding.

While is is true that there is grind in every MMORPG (though blizzard managed to make it bearable in world of warcraft), few are the MMORPG that makes you grind several time the same content for different reasons. And that's what people are complaining about.

In 3.0 we had to farm the level 60 dungeons for both the ilvl 170 gear and the ilvl 200 gear. In 2.0 we had to farm fates for both leveling and getting a relic ... and the list goes on.

But, Blizzard designed the early days of WoW with tons of gear and deception. But the acceptable kind. I remember leveling a druid (because I wanted to do all things), and encountering their sets of "Of the Monkey" and "Of the Tiger" and thinking that I need to collect the Tiger set because I wanted to use the cat form exclusively and the bear form in emergencies. The deceptive part came, when I learned that I had to run the instances where the gear dropped over and over until I not only got the piece I wanted, but also got the RNG rolls of stats that I wanted. The random nature made it "exciting" but only as far as keeping me playing, not as far as giving me what I wanted. Eventually I wound up out-leveling the content and no needing to ever pick up that pieces that I set out searching for. Great design in keeping me playing, bad design in letting me reach my goal. Here in FFXIV know what piece to look for because they created categories for classes, not for stat grouping with no RNG.

If you can't see that FFXIV's system is wow system for leveling gear (because what you re talking about is leveling gear, there was no RNG in endgame gear stats before WoD), with less stats variety (because one class=one type of gear, in wow 1 class = potentially 3 set of different gears), then you obviously didn't play wow enough.

[SethCypher]

I do agree though, to an extent..the best way IS to let the sub run out...and don't come back until the game changes, if it doesn't, then don't come back. I know I am not coming back until they add some new gameplay/content/etc. I refuse to keep paying for the same patches reskinned..over and over.

But you're gonna sink your money into some other reskinned game anyways.

[Xairos]

While is is true that there is grind in every MMORPG (though blizzard managed to make it bearable in world of warcraft), few are the MMORPG that makes you grind several time the same content for different reasons. And that's what people are complaining about.

In 3.0 we had to farm the level 60 dungeons for both the ilvl 170 gear and the ilvl 200 gear. In 2.0 we had to farm fates for both leveling and getting a relic ... and the list goes on.



If you can't see that FFXIV's system is wow system for leveling gear (because what you re talking about is leveling gear, there was no RNG in endgame gear stats before WoD), with less stats variety (because one class=one type of gear, in wow 1 class = potentially 3 set of different gears), then you obviously didn't play wow enough.

What i meant to say is that WoWs item grind was a bit worse because you fought RNG on seeing the loot as well as RNG on the Stats because it had too much variance. This was done on purpose to keep people doing the content. As opposed to here where there is little variance on stats because it's tightly grouped for stats per job. As a result the gear is more boring here but better in the end because you as a player know what you are getting and that it is helping you. For example you won't find two Shadow Bow's with differing stats on DEX. So after you get one, you are effectively done. This discourages grinding, but its more boring. Example #2 that favors grinding behind the veil of "it could be better" (and is more exciting upfront): Diablo 3 and to an extent old school wow (i don't know if its the same today).

[Aeyis]

Listen: All MMOs in existence are Grinds. If, at anytime, you play with your sights set on a specific goal and then do content over and over to reach that goal then that is a grind.

The problem is that it needs to be made an acceptable grind. Something with a goal at the end. And here there just isnt. Why is it that I've gone through a 24 hour grind in RO (start of a new server event), but can barely grind an hour or two of favors here?
Because there is no goal at the end.

If you play League, Heroes, DOTA, Hearthstone, Destiny, Monster Hunter, Pokemon, Tales of (Series), then you will eventually grind on something.

Heroes of the Storm, DOTA, Hearthstone; none of these are MMOs.

And don't delude yourself into thinking that this game would magically be ten times better if SE just threw more content in the game that people would just ignore. As of today, SE is methodically placing content in the game that people can all participate in.

Which in turn lowers the quality of the game a great deal.

What do you think singleplayer FF games would be like if it had to be enjoyable by those that dont like RPG games? By those that only play one game every 6 months? By those that dont enjoy fantasy or scifi?

They didn't have to do it.

This is a sub based MMO, not a F2P. They do have to.

They lost a ton of money on 1.0 and they need to rebuild.

Poor marketing, early release. They could have made a better game by simply developing it for 2 years more.

I remember leveling a druid (because I wanted to do all things), and encountering their sets of "Of the Monkey" and "Of the Tiger" and thinking that I need to collect the Tiger set because I wanted to use the cat form exclusively and the bear form in emergencies.

I'm sorry to read about your experience as someone new to RPGs. We were all new to them at some point.

This was done on purpose to keep people doing the content.

No it was done to make the items and stats more interesting. Not a ''ilvl says all, thats good! Because otherwise I wouldnt understand it''

[Stanelis]

What i meant to say is that WoWs item grind was a bit worse because you fought RNG on seeing the loot as well as RNG on the Stats because it had too much variance. This was done on purpose to keep people doing the content. As opposed to here where there is little variance on stats because it's tightly grouped for stats per job. As a result the gear is more boring here but better in the end because you as a player know what you are getting and that it is helping you. For example you won't find two Shadow Bow's with differing stats on DEX. So after you get one, you are effectively done. This discourages grinding, but its more boring. Example #2 that favors grinding behind the veil of "it could be better" (and is more exciting upfront): Diablo 3 and to an extent old school wow (i don't know if its the same today).

The gear you re talking about is leveling gear. There were no random stats on relevant gear (eg dungeons drops after a certain level and raids) from vanilla wow to WoD. In WoD stats RNG came in for some gear but only does apply to secondary stats.

[Iromi]

But you're gonna sink your money into some other reskinned game anyways.

How do you know that? You don't even know me LOL

I was planning on spending it on reality..lol. No more games. Soo..no?

[Xairos]

Subjectivity is the opposite of objective, which refers to things that are more clear-cut. That Earth has one moon is objective — it's a fact. Whether the moon is pretty or not is subjective — not everyone will agree. Facts are objective, but opinions are subjective

Whether or not a grind is acceptable is subjective. Do I want to try to Dodge Lightning 200 times for a weapon so I can do more damage to optional endgame bosses? Depends on you. Do I want to run a dungeon 20 times for tomes for gear that makes it easier for me to run dungeons to get more gear...? Depends on you. I agree with you on the fact that it's SE job to lie to us in a pleasant way and make the Grind Acceptable.

I can't even.... and for some of those I was talking about Gaming and grinding as a whole not just grinding as mmos are concerned. If you want to get Ranks in some of those games, its a Grind. or a Farm, or w/e. Look at the design choices from a developers standpoint not just as a gamer. You kept playing for gear with RNG stats because you think you can get better rolls. That's why its designed like that. Don't let the frustration of FFXIV cloud your thinking. SE chose to go with what was in FFXI and take RNG off gear, that makes it a bit boring, but it gets us to our goal a lot faster. You are right about 1.0, maybe, but they didn't try to make a better game, it was rushed, and it failed, financially. Regardless, SE still needed (and wanted) to rebuild. It doesn't change the fact that we are currently in their rebuilding attempt.

And as far as presentation, First impressions in gaming are huge. Very huge. So much so, that even with this current "Easy as pie" model we have in FFXIV people still are confused about what stats to emphasize and what secondary stats they should go for on their gear for their class.

The gear you re talking about is leveling gear. There were no random stats on relevant gear (eg dungeons drops after a certain level and raids) from vanilla wow to WoD. In WoD stats RNG came in for some gear but only does apply to secondary stats.

Yeah, you might be right. I never saw end game gear. I got to level 86, i think. My ultimate point (in an attempt to not split hairs on what part of the game has the randomized stats on gear) is that Randomized Stats on Gear seems fun on the surface. Heck, while leveling, it IS fun. Each piece is unique and special and different. Objectively, it keeps you thinking: "IS this the best rolls I could have gotten?" and "Maybe I can get better if I do a few more runs" or you might not care at all and just go with what you got, which in turn, begs the question, why even have it all?

Is the goal the gear or the feeling?

Here is where Subjectivity can no longer be questioned. If your goal is to feel, then weird stats and worthless pieces are brilliant. If your goal is to upgrade and be at the best you can be, then to get rid of the worthless drops is better. Its a fork in the road for your gaming style. It seems like for many in this thread the fault with FFXIV (and current MMO trends) is that the game design gets us to our goal too cleanly and to clearly. It doesn't lie to us, it doesn't cloud the path, it just lays it out there and lets us choose if it's worth our time doing.

Anecdote: I used to play Magic: The Gathering. I started out just like many other players: I got a starter deck with all it's (objectively) horrible cards. But I didn't really know any better. So I had tons of fun learning the rules and seeing the awesome artwork on each of the cards. From there I, rightfully so, started to move into buying Booster Packs. Here is where things started split in my mind. Subjectively, Booster Packs are amazing! They are like the sweetest drug known to man. Objectively, they are the spawn of evil and the absolute worst way to get into deck-building and playing the game. The ratio of getting cards that are good and cards that you will need are abysmal and I was better off buying singles and trading for what I wanted as opposed to booster packs.

But.. it wasn't as much fun. So I had to make a choice. Go the fun route and lie to myself as far as efficiency was concerned, or go the effective route and get to making decks and putting my brain to work at the strategy of the game. IT was tough, but now I buy a pack maybe once or twice a year.

They can't change up the flow of this game overnight. Nor will they. They have declared (so far) that they dont want to cloud or hide the grind in this game (except for Red Scrips) as far as gear and Ilevels are concerned. Now we all have decisions to make. Will we favor the lie and the obfuscations of the past for the sake of making us feel like we are accomplishing something, or will we actually (as far as the limitations of the game we play) accomplish something even though the path is easy and laid out for us?