Do Warriors have any single disadvantage?

[BadRNG]

Man, I don't know how many times we have to go over this. It's not that WAR shouldn't have the debuff, it's that they have a huge advantage because they have it. That advantage isn't even an issue by itself, it's just that on top of all the other advantages they have (with no real disadvantage) an imbalance is created. It's an issue because PLD/DRK naturally NEED another class in their group before they can equal WAR. A WAR never needs anyone.

I mean, even with the weakness you claim they have with deliverance, they can still tank just fine in it. The other cooldowns they have still makes them sturdy. You didn't really comment on the other aspect of that, a DRK/PLD's weaknesses can prevent them from being ideal depending on the fight. The WAR is never not ideal. Even with the supposed weakness, they still have the best MT dps, and they still (when smartly played) have incredibly good mitigation. A DRK misusing MP for damage can lose a lot of their magic mitigation or mitigation in general (not having enough to switch back to Grit). A well played DRK won't run into these issues, but a well played WAR won't be using all of their stack building cooldowns for DPS if they need them later. You are basically saying WAR's weakness is that they can be played badly. So can DRK, hell so can PLD believe it or not. That's not a real weakness.

And your final line hilariously just further proves the point I'm trying to make. WAR is good in every single situation, PLD/DRK have situations where they are clearly inferior. That is the imbalance. That is the entire argument.

[Tila]

Man, I don't know how many times we have to go over this. It's not that WAR shouldn't have the debuff, it's that they have a huge advantage because they have it. That advantage isn't even an issue by itself, it's just that on top of all the other advantages they have (with no real disadvantage) an imbalance is created. It's an issue because PLD/DRK naturally NEED another class in their group before they can equal WAR. A WAR never needs anyone.

I mean, even with the weakness you claim they have with deliverance, they can still tank just fine in it. The other cooldowns they have still makes them sturdy. You didn't really comment on the other aspect of that, a DRK/PLD's weaknesses can prevent them from being ideal depending on the fight. The WAR is never not ideal. Even with the supposed weakness, they still have the best MT dps, and they still (when smartly played) have incredibly good mitigation. A DRK misusing MP for damage can lose a lot of their magic mitigation or mitigation in general (not having enough to switch back to Grit). A well played DRK won't run into these issues, but a well played WAR won't be using all of their stack building cooldowns for DPS if they need them later. You are basically saying WAR's weakness is that they can be played badly. So can DRK, hell so can PLD believe it or not. That's not a real weakness.

And your final line hilariously just further proves the point I'm trying to make. WAR is good in every single situation, PLD/DRK have situations where they are clearly inferior. That is the imbalance. That is the entire argument.

Sounds like your argument is that PLD/DRK should be balanced around solo play. You in a long winded way are complaining that WAR doesn't need anyone to be effective, when this is a discussion all about group content.

PLD and DRK needing someone isn't imbalance. Many classes shine with specific others. Its classes having differences.

[BadRNG]

Sounds like your argument is that PLD/DRK should be balanced around solo play. You in a long winded way are complaining that WAR doesn't need anyone to be effective, when this is a discussion all about group content.

PLD and DRK needing someone isn't imbalance. Many classes shine with specific others. Its classes having differences.

Needing someone is an imbalance when you need someone just to be equal to someone who needs no one (try saying that ten times fast). What other jobs suffer from that? The disembowel argument is poor, because the only competition BRD/MCH have is each other. One is not better than the other without the DRG buff. It's going to be about the same.

The complaint is that WAR is good at everything, bad at nothing, and needs no support to be good at what it is good at. If that is supposed to be class differences, you are basically saying being naturally superior is WAR's difference. Ideally differences should be what they bring to the group, not the basic aspects of the class being handicapped unless you bring another.

I should also say again that I am fine with WAR being the best DPS tank, it's just that PLD/DRK should get something universal to make up for the fact that they lose that damage.

[Tila]

Needing someone is an imbalance when you need someone just to be equal to someone who needs no one (try saying that ten times fast). What other jobs suffer from that? The disembowel argument is poor, because the only competition BRD/MCH have is each other. One is not better than the other without the DRG buff. It's going to be about the same.

The complaint is that WAR is good at everything, bad at nothing, and needs no support to be good at what it is good at. If that is supposed to be class differences, you are basically saying being naturally superior is WAR's difference. Ideally differences should be what they bring to the group, not the basic aspects of the class being handicapped unless you bring another.

I should also say again that I am fine with WAR being the best DPS tank, it's just that PLD/DRK should get something universal to make up for the fact that they lose that damage.

Well DRK doesnt, their damage is fine in comparison even if their DPS rotation is boring as sin. At most I say that reprisal needs to be changed to be a simple cooldown based ability: essentially a limited time double storms path that you use when you need. I feel that'd keep it distinct enough from Warrior and Storms Path.

PLD has the same issue as BRD had. They are partly a support, and a very safe class to play (like how BRD was the mobile dps with no real rotation) and pay for what they can do with something that isn't exactly wholly in the meta. The only way to fix Paladin is to redesign. If they get buffed with what they have they'll end up being over done. That's the real core of the PLD issue. The complaints aimed at them mirror the old BRD ones.

The game can't be based around each class being a self contained bastion that doesn't need others. Some can be like that, but if they all are then we get to homogenization, and no one wants that. Its a class based game, many aspects will be based around having other classes.

[BadRNG]

The game can't be based around each class being a self contained bastion that doesn't need others. Some can be like that, but if they all are then we get to homogenization, and no one wants that. Its a class based game, many aspects will be based around having other classes.

Homogenization isn't necessarily evil, WAR is only as good as it is because they homogenized it massively with PLD in 2.1. Sometimes being unique doesn't work in the overall balance.

I think NIN is perfect model to fix DRK/PLD. They do less damage than MNK/DRG but bring excellent utility. WAR actually manages to have it all right now; great mitigation, damage, and best tank utility.