Do Warriors have any single disadvantage?

[Fue]

If anything WAR's weakest spot is when it comes to group pulling. while they now have raw intuition, it's still pretty tough to keep large groups infront of you (awareness says hi). also their aoe enmity management is almost entirely TP based. and if you pull multiple groups one after another you'll run out of CDs (and TP)

I disagree. Im having no problems with cd's or tp even in A2 Savage where i go pretty much spam happy with overpower.

[Faytte]

Did you really just compare unmend as an tp restore to warriors unlimited tp?

No--I said that wars in 2.0 had no unlimited tp as OT's. They had no stack mechanics or free attacks, or tp restore, and did just fine. I then compared against paladins to underline how absolutely, undeniably BETTER it was it was than anything in their tool kit, and then concluded most dark knights complaining about TP are
1) only seeing this against target dummies and/or
2) are x dps that are cannot exist without tp regen and/or
3) would probably -die- if they were in a fight as a paladin and had to stun mobs, like A3 spawns. and/or
4) do not at all understand how good their tp is. Your aoe costs no tp (unlike overpower which eats your tp) and you can use unmend to STILL do damage and regen a full gcd worth of tp if you are every truly worried you might go out of tp.
5) Reminding everyone that bosses generally have breaks where you regen tp (a1, a3, a4 if you go grab orbs like a good tank) which make this irrelevant.

[Erim-Nelhah]

A1 auto attacks are physical
The lazer attacks they hit you with (cleave) are magical (cannot be parried or blocked).
Prey is also magical (which isnt really a buster--it can hit anyone i believe--but worth mitigating since you are already taking other damage off the boss).
The jumps are irrelevant?

I'd forgotten about the cleave.
No, Prey isn't a buster in A1N. It is in A1S, tho, iiuc (never tried it). Still, my point stands - PLD CDs aren't completely worthless in A1-A3, and in fact should be quite valuable in A3 because his cleave is also his "buster".

The reason DRK is currently favored over PLD in progression isn't the mitigation, it's the DPS (I can't blame current progression teams for running DRK/WAR given that the DPS checks start at nearly 6k). I can generally stay pretty darned close to a sword oath pld while Grit is up. If I drop Grit, it's no contest - PLD hits like a wet noodle and DRK hits like a truck. WAR, otoh, hits like a Freight Train and tends to have better mitigation than DRK too.

--Erim Nelhah

[Faytte]

I'd forgotten about the cleave.
No, Prey isn't a buster in A1N. It is in A1S, tho, iiuc (never tried it). Still, my point stands - PLD CDs aren't completely worthless in A1-A3, and in fact should be quite valuable in A3 because his cleave is also his "buster".

The reason DRK is currently favored over PLD in progression isn't the mitigation, it's the DPS (I can't blame current progression teams for running DRK/WAR given that the DPS checks start at nearly 6k). I can generally stay pretty darned close to a sword oath pld while Grit is up. If I drop Grit, it's no contest - PLD hits like a wet noodle and DRK hits like a truck. WAR, otoh, hits like a Freight Train and tends to have better mitigation than DRK too.

--Erim Nelhah

Until i tank AS3 i cant speak to it, but having done it on all three in normal basically, he does the cleave --but thats hardly a buster? That hits harder, certainly, but its hitting you throughout that entire phase. A paladin mitigating 1 of those attacks for 10% more or poping bulkwark for 2 others in a 15 second period is not a massive advantage (warriors can parry buff through about 3 of them every 90 seconds, etc).


The reason DRK is favored over paladin is that mitigate fine enough (infact better given the frequency of damage, its better. Outside of sheltron, paladins dont have any short cds--Prey happens every 2 minutes in ASL1 (sorry its late, and I forgot prey is the magic buster). AS3 smacks are continous save for the predictable magic damage, Alexander 4 (normal) had a 1 minute or so magic buster.

Paladins are not set up to tank damage that way. Paladins were set up to do tank swaps and pop their cds for a huge hit, and then tag out for the next one. Maybe you will need that in AS4, but so far AS1/2/3 do not allow for. The other tank is TANKING something else any times it matters.

[Alphras]

- healing abilities are not affected by defiance
- compared to the 20% DR of the other tanks, heals are about 4% less effective in general
- less MT DPS than DRK if they need to stay in Defiance/use stacks and cooldowns for mitigation
- very strict timings, which is not a disadvantage if the player is good and has a good connection
- no HG

[Twilite]

Defiance healing bonus doesn't work on healing abilities like lustrate, essential dignity, etc.

Also doesn't work with convalescence, which is arguably most important for the WAR as they need it to make ToB more than just an increase in eHP.

..So basically if you're in Defiance, you're using convalescence for nothing?!

[Reynhart]

Ok, a little weird idea, but than can solve some problems.
In 3.0, PLD got a healing spell. What if a PLD OT could be enough to keep the MT alive ?
This way, you could create party setup with any MT, a WAR OT and two healers, or, any MT a PLD OT and one healer.

Will the PLD OT deal far less damage than the WAR ? Yeah, sure, but it allows you to bring one DPS instead of a second healer, and forcing your first healer to be 100% healing throughout the fight, for an overall same party DPS.

For example, Clemency could be affected by the target's enmity, thus being designed specifically for healing the main tank. And since it's a single target spell, you would still need a healer for raid wide damage.

After all, it doesn't really matter if each class is stricly balanced in every way, as long as there is several setup based on each pros and cons. As for fights where there are several big targets, WAR doesn't shine much more than other tanks.

Of course, a DRK should have a spot on its own, too.

[winsock]

@OP
There are quite a few compared to PLD.
No block
No AoE blind
Stun has cd
No silence
PLD has trait advantages
10 sec commitment on stance change
PLD has access to much more mitigation while in offensive stance.
Can't help party member defense: Divine veil, cover, etc
Etc.

At the same time though, I can't help but feel like you won't care about any of these things so long as:
A) WAR is a viable tank.
B) WAR DPS > PLD DPS

But:
You can't make WAR so defensively weak that it is no longer functional as a tank.
You can't make WAR and PLD dps equal without making PLD the superior choice.

What other disadvantages do you believe a WAR should have that would also keep WAR viable as a tank?

[Ryaz]

At the same time though, I can't help but feel like you won't care about any of these things so long as:
A) WAR is a viable tank.
B) WAR DPS > PLD DPS

But:
You can't make WAR so defensively weak that it is no longer functional as a tank.
You can't make WAR and PLD dps equal without making PLD the superior choice.

What other disadvantages do you believe a WAR should have that would also keep WAR viable as a tank?

Again, this is a flaw in the holy trinity. As long as something is viable, more dps will always be useful, while more mitigation just gets lost. It's not a matter of not caring-- it's just a fact of the mechanics. Best way to negate that problem, imo, is to provide more party utility. Pld can be the "support" tank just like MCH and BRD are "support" dps.

[winsock]

Again, this is a flaw in the holy trinity. As long as something is viable, more dps will always be useful, while more mitigation just gets lost. It's not a matter of not caring-- it's just a fact of the mechanics. Best way to negate that problem, imo, is to provide more party utility. Pld can be the "support" tank just like MCH and BRD are "support" dps.

PLD already has a lot more support than the other 2 tanks. Cover, Divine veil, clemency, stoneskin.

Even if you gave PLD additional support like tp/mp regen, you run into a similar scenario. If PLD is viable at tp/mp regen + fills the tanking role, what prevents BRDs/MCHs spots from being replaced by PLD?