Is Paladin in a Bad Spot?

[Phoenicia]

Stuff.

I did mention Sword Oath is a flat additional 50 potency hit on top of each auto attack. This hit crits on its own and misses on its own. The Auto Attack can land a normal and the additional hit may miss or crit depending on your stats. That flat 50 potency adds roughly a 11~15% total DPS increase based on what weapon you're using. Tested and proven.

Sword Oath is so potent that PLD (with its lower average potency than WAR) did more DPS than WAR outside of Defiance throughout 2.x. WAR actually had to juggle Defiance to outDPS SwO PLD. The combination of WAR MT and PLD OT capitalized on SwO's damage output for a total raid-wide DPS increase.

All targets in this game have a set Defense and M. Defense stat of 0. Tested and proven. I do not have the formulas on hand but they're out there.

Last note: Please stop comparing Sword Oath with Darkside. You're not comparing apples to apples here. Darkside is DRK's equivalent of Maim/FoF and NOT a DPS stance. DRK has no DPS stance.

[Freyyy]

PLD dmg is fine. Off tanking, Pld can rotate two Royal Authority combos for every one Goring blade/CoS/Fracture tripple DoT application

Pretty sure that Fracture is now a DPS loss for PLD.

[Dante_V]

Where is the PLD lol

https://twitter.com/Lucrezia_Alex/st...24619542286336

You sir are the man. Makes me wonder where the 650 came from? Credibility blown tho lol.

And 800 is completely viable while MT as drk.

[SirTaint]

You sir are the man. Makes me wonder where the 650 came from? Credibility blown tho lol.

And 800 is completely viable while MT as drk.

650 mt, 800 st is from their announcement.


And fracture is dead to PLD, huge waste of DPS and TP now.

[Februs]

I'm pretty sure it is too. I just haven't actually taken the time to do the math on it yet. I was just saying that for every 5 additional moves, you can output 2 combos that has a flat combo potency for dmg. For a job that's traditionally not known for dmg dealing, that's not half bad.

[OPneedNerfs]

.

Answer this simple question:
Would ANY party NOT bring a WAR to ANY content that requires 2 tanks right now?

So yes, WARs are top dog of tank classes now and should just shut up about other classes being fine and WARs being "weaker" and having oh so many disadvantages that other tanks somehow magically don't face as well.

[Giantbane]

Hmmm, let's see here...

Is WAR the MT of choice?

Is WAR the tank that EVERYONE rolls when they realize their previous tank class is not fun/viable?

Is WAR so "top dog" that double WAR groups are so rampant and are running everywhere?

Answer these simple questions and then discuss their status as "top dog".

As it is now, WAR is pigeon-holed into the OT spot. Most tank players do not like to be set into OT. And I am by no means a WAR main. It is just that the amount of crying about classes is getting ridiculous. I mean DRK is crying about being "squishy" and PLD is crying about their DPS. Yet I don't see many cry-on-forums types demanding buffs to make WAR MT more often. Maybe WARs should cry about them being a last option MT. "First OT option" doesn't make them top dogs nor justifies them not MTing and everyone is saying PLD and DRK are "fine OTs". And unless WAR becomes "Best choice MT", it is by no means a "top dog" status.

WAR has all the tools to make a great MT. They just make such good OTs that why wouldn't you use them in that role? And 2x WAR gives you the LB penalty, so better to just swap PLD/DRK depending on the specifics of the fight (which looks like it's exactly what's happening).

[Februs]

Darkside is equivalent of Maim/FoF and NOT a DPS stance. DRK has no DPS stance.

How are Darkside and FoF comparable? Darkside = flat increase in dmg by 15% FoF is 30% FoF lasts for 20 seconds. Darkside is UNLIMITED as long as you have mp. How is it NOT a dps stance? Instant increase to dmg and gives you access to Blood Weapon and Dark Arts which increases your attack speed on top of your overall dmg. I think most people would call that a dps stance, especially compared to SO.
And yes, baseline def is 0, but certain bosses can enter stances that dramatically reduce incoming dmg and SO can't cope. Obviously, +potency of 50 is an increase, but it is most certainly not comparable to other tanks, especially those with aoe capability. Sword oath is a single target move. Compared to salt of the earth, for example, raid dmg is down in add phases. My only point was that SO is not something to bank on for raid dmg increase. It's just not what it's good for.

[Freyyy]

How are Darkside and FoF comparable? Darkside = flat increase in dmg by 15% FoF is 30% FoF lasts for 20 seconds

FoF increases damage done by 30% for 30 sec (not 20) on a 90 sec CD. It's a 33% uptime, so it's like a constant +10% damage during an entire fight. Not as powerful as Darkside but you got the idea. But still Darkside is not a DPS stance. I most of the time compare Darkside to WAR's Maim.

[Phoenicia]

Answer this simple question:
Would ANY party NOT bring a WAR to ANY content that requires 2 tanks right now?

So yes, WARs are top dog of tank classes now and should just shut up about other classes being fine and WARs being "weaker" and having oh so many disadvantages that other tanks somehow magically don't face as well.

I never said WAR is weaker than the other tanks. As a matter of fact, it is to my belief that WAR is the "strongest" tank of the three. I just do not call "top dog" because when any combination 2 tanks are present, the non-WAR will be MT.

The point of my post was not that PLD > WAR or DRK > WAR. It is the "ease of use" and "safety" the other tanks bring as opposed to WAR.

Fun fact #1: Removing the I-won't-die-button, WAR pumps its effective HP the highest when it pops all its CDs compared to the other tanks. Makes handling the strongest busters possible. i.e. Double Prey.

Fun fact #2: Back-to-back CDs, WAR has the longest mitigation up-time. If a repeat of T1, T4 or a prolonged AoE wave that isn't getting killed happens.

PLD: Rampart (20s) > Sentinel (10s) > Bulwark (15s) > Hallowed Ground (10s) = 55s total.
DRK: Shadowskin (20s) > Shadow Wall (10s) > Living Dead (10~s) = 40s total. Add in Dark Dance and Dark Mind for the lols
WAR: IB (6s) > Infuriate IB (6s) > Vengeance (15s) > IB (6s) > Raw Intuition (20s) > IB (6s) > ToB+Conv. (~17% effective mitigation) (20s) > IB (6s) > Infuriate IB (6s) > Holmgang for the lols (6s) = 97s total.

In the 97s window WAR can use Equilibrium Twice, Second Wind and all those IBs heal a significant amount. If we put up Berserk in there and add bloodbath, WAR's self healing will be no joke.

I will omit things like Foresight and Awareness because those are shite.

I know VERY well the strengths and weaknesses of each of the three tanks.

I will also acknowledge that of the three tanks, WAR is the tank that "secured" its spot. But it "secured" a spot that any tank can fulfill. Anything the WAR does as an OT, it can do as MT.

WAR is pigeon-holed into the OT spot because of their DPS? Guess what? With the slashing debuff, DRK does the same/more DPS and PLD is very close. And whatever less DPS the PLD does in SwO, WAR makes up for in the additional DPS they do as MT compared to PLD MT. Also guess what? NIN can apply the slashing debuff at a slight DPS loss too! So PLD/DRK + NIN can work just as fine. WAR is by no means "mandatory". A static with a PLD/DRK setup doesn't need to change jobs. They just have the "better MT for the fight" go MT and the other tank go OT. "Hint: PLD will be the MT for most of the fights".

Storm Path, while significant, is overrated. It is also a 40 potency loss from BB. Most WARs drop it from their rotation specially when the group is comfortable with surviving and healing raid-wide damage. A smart WAR will eat the 40 potency loss only when needed and apply SP right before a buster or raid-wide damage. So when DPS is concerned, WAR should be doing SE/BB alternatively, not SE/SP.

WAR is VERY strong and probably the most versatile of the three tanks. But as long as the community pushes it into the fixed OT role (which they are good at, but not really "better" than the other jobs) and not the MT role (which they can excel at), I wouldn't call it a "top dog". I will just call it a solid tank.

I am not complaining about WAR as a class at all. I just think the community - in general - is stupid for ignoring facts and sticking to outdated 2.0 mentality where PLD is the only MT and then coming to the forums and crying about the new competitor (DRK) came into the picture. People are pissed because it is actually "better" to use DRK as MT than PLD in some fights and made them feel "excluded" from a whole lot of 2 encounters (Namely As3 and As4).

How are Darkside and FoF comparable? Darkside = flat increase in dmg by 15% FoF is 30% FoF lasts for 20 seconds. Darkside is UNLIMITED as long as you have mp. How is it NOT a dps stance? Instant increase to dmg and gives you access to Blood Weapon and Dark Arts which increases your attack speed on top of your overall dmg. I think most people would call that a dps stance, especially compared to SO.
And yes, baseline def is 0, but certain bosses can enter stances that dramatically reduce incoming dmg and SO can't cope. Obviously, +potency of 50 is an increase, but it is most certainly not comparable to other tanks, especially those with aoe capability. Sword oath is a single target move. Compared to salt of the earth, for example, raid dmg is down in add phases. My only point was that SO is not something to bank on for raid dmg increase. It's just not what it's good for.

While FoF is not a "constant" DPS increase buff, it is PLD's version of "damage increase".

Again, you are not comparing apples to apples here.

Darkside is not a DPS stance because it does not cancel Grit, just like how Maim and FoF do not cancel the other tanks' respective tank stances. Also, just like how FoF doesn't have a 100% uptime, DRK has no "Oomf my DPS goes mad" burst CD.

Blood Weapon is available as long as you are not using Grit and has NO RELATION to Darkside. Read the tooltip carefully and tell me if Darkside is anywhere in there.

Sword Oath results in a 11-15% overall DPS increase whenever the PLD is doing DPS. PLD has no AoE, it is its major weakness. But if you wanna get technical, auto-attacks are still going when you spam Flash, the 50 potency on AA becomes a LOT more significant percentage wise when you are not doing weaponskills.

All buffs are multiplicative. When a boss goes into a defensive stance or gets a defensive buff, ALL potencies, flat or multiplicative% buff, are multiplied by a malus. If the defensive buff reduces damage by 20%, your overall DPS is going down by 20%. Doesn't matter if it was added potency of multiplied damage buff. Your overall DPS goes down by 20%. I do not see how this affects Sword Oath worse or better than anything else in the game.