Why does Enochian have to be a pain in the neck?

[Kenji1134]

All in all the idea behind Enochian is okay, but there needs to be some pro/con balance in the implementation.

Right now the 2 biggest problems are that if either Enochian or AF/UI drop during your F4/B4 cast, you lose the cast. And that the rotation basically demands that you skim the very edge of the timers in order to output enough dps to warrant using the new spells... Versus just taking the 5% bonus and basically using the old rotation, replacing B1 w/ B4 as filler in the UI phase.

The source of this issue is that F4/B4 in no way help you maintain the buffs required to keep them going. This is understandable as SE wants us to continue using F1 during the Enochian rotation. The issue is that you need to fit 2 F4's and an F1 into 10 seconds. 2*3+2.5 = 8.5s, that seems fine in theory. Add in the 0.5s initial latency after switching into AF3 before you can cast F4, we now have 9s. Add in 100ms latency between casts and we have 9.3s out of a 10s timer... Watch any BLM executing the "perfect" Enochian rotation and you'll see how AF3 ends up with 0-1 seconds when it is refreshed. IE its being refreshed as it falls off.
There is a similar issue with B4 if you start trying to add Thunder into the UI phase.

The simplest solution is to add something which helps perpetuate AF/UI and Enochian across various abilities.
As Yoshida hinted at in the Live Letter, making the Thunder spells add ~3s to Enochian would allow us to readily incorporate them into the rotation.
Subsequently we could add a secondary effect to F4 which makes the next F1 instant cast with the original mana cost. This means you could throw as many as 3 F4's in a row, then instant cast F1 to refresh the AF3 timer... However you'd still be limited to 4 F4's per cycle due to mana constraints, so there is no dps increase under ideal conditions, however you can refresh AF3 much more readily, AND you are not as punished by movement since every F4 gives you an instant F1.

[Yeldir]

BLM outputs more damage than melees if foe is up, even more if Battle voice is paired.

So they pull ahead if the groups buffs single out magic damage, which obviously excludes melee? Is this actually the dominant strategy in your savage group? This does not appear to be the case in anywhere else I've looked, and I can only assume it is because it is simply more effective for the brd to buff melees, as they are superior and easier damage in a level playing field.

Do you plan to answer my question? Specifically, I asked if you think it's OK for Black Mage, a pure DPS class with zero support capability besides EFAE, to be substantially more complicated and demanding than most melee classes, while being flat out inferior damage to them?

Do you dispute the idea that Black Mages do less damage than melee classes of equal skill in single target environments and more or less level playing fields?

Do you dispute the idea that managing astral ice, astral fire, enochian, our mp bar, and thunder casts/procs, coupled with our lengthy cast times on everything, makes Black Mage a more difficult class to play than those same melee classes?

[OneWingedSora]

So they pull ahead if the groups buffs single out magic damage, which obviously excludes melee? Is this actually the dominant strategy in your savage group? This does not appear to be the case in anywhere else I've looked, and I can only assume it is because it is simply more effective for the brd to buff melees, as they are superior and easier damage in a level playing field.

How exactly do Bards "buff" melees ?

Do you plan to answer my question? Specifically, I asked if you think it's OK for Black Mage, a pure DPS class with zero support capability besides EFAE, to be substantially more complicated and demanding than most melee classes, while being flat out inferior damage to them?

You forgot Apoc, arguably one of the most useful support abilities in the game.

[Sleigh]

So they pull ahead if the groups buffs single out magic damage, which obviously excludes melee? Is this actually the dominant strategy in your savage group? This does not appear to be the case in anywhere else I've looked, and I can only assume it is because it is simply more effective for the brd to buff melees, as they are superior and easier damage in a level playing field.

Do you dispute the idea that Black Mages do less damage than melee classes of equal skill in single target environments and more or less level playing fields?

I'm confused, BRDs do not choose to buff melee/casters at will, they will always buff casters anywhere from 1-3+ times a fight. The only stipulation on buffing casters is how much Paeon/Ballad is required for the fight.

Are you referencing having a MCH instead of a BRD?

[Leonus]

So...

Everyone's main class is always harder to play than someone elses'.

This doesn't just apply to dps, this applies to the trinity as well (tanks vs healers vs dps)

[StouterTaru]

Do you dispute the idea that Black Mages do less damage than melee classes of equal skill in single target environments and more or less level playing fields?

That depends on the playing field. What single target playing field even exists in HW, the dungeon bosses?

A1 - Faust I guess, but BLM can put out similar damage to melee. The actual boss has a twin, thundercloud.
A2 - Clusters of mobs, no melee should come close to BLM damage
A3 - Single boss most of the fight, but BLM shines on the scattered add phase
A4 - Utility, utility, utility. Being on the back lines lets you eat an orb or grab a tether several times (manaward). BLM can own their add quickly, and assist with other adds.

The only level single target playing field is a training dummy, and who really cares about that anyway?

[Yeldir]

How exactly do Bards "buff" melees ?

http://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Army%27s_Paeon
This is used extensively and to great effect in melee heavy groups. Moreover, not every raid, even competitive ones, have bards, so there's a certain perversity in judging the state of BLM by it.

You forgot Apoc, arguably one of the most useful support abilities in the game.

I would argue against that. It is extremely short duration, long cooldown, and the majority of hits the taken by the targets you'll be using it on ignore it entirely. There aren't many bosses where the tank gets completely hosed with magic damage within the first ten seconds of the fight. It's something we use because if we don't use it, it doesn't get used.

My support comment was intended to illustrate that you really can't justify the current state of Black Mages based on their support capabilities. In fact, this is the first time I've ever seen someone try. We're not Bards, and we can't accept inferiority in our primary role based on what we offer to others in our group, because what we offer to others in our group is trivial in nature.

oink oink oink oink

squeeeeeal

EDIT: Oh, and Leonus:

Everyone's main class is always harder to play than someone elses'.

This doesn't just apply to dps, this applies to the trinity as well (tanks vs healers vs dps)

You're a Dragoon. You're the easiest dps class to play, and everybody knows it, probably the least reflex and forethought-intensive class in the game. Hell, man, you just got easier.

If you think I'm talking smack, get a BLM to 60. I double dog dare you. Your positions, chaining and triple Geirskogul setups are easy by comparison. Easy.

[Kiara]

Sorry but the whole "git gud" argument is absolute garbage. Just because a someone may be good at the new mechanics of BLM does not make it a "good", "fun" or "rewarding" system. Enochian is an interesting concept on paper, but is implemented poorly. There is literally 0 zero room for error. There's a difference between having to read situations and being familiar with fights and dealing with a clunky buff that one slight misstep causes you to lose a HUGE portion of your dps. It's the most punishing class which is not worth the effort you have to put into. You can do more damage on other classes that require less work and are less punishing - that are indeed more fun. I used to love BLM, but in it's current state, it just feels like there's way too much work to maintain any form of damaging presence.

I completely agree.

With a new Expansion Pack (3.0), you'd think it'd be a celebration of all things new, fun, exciting. NONE of those words describe Black Mage in 3.0.

As someone else stated, even with Ley Lines (and Enochian), the types of encounters the Combat Team are designing (with lots of gimmicks, forced "get out of the way", etc.) are fundamentally *counter* and the opposite of what you need to fully use Black Mage's Ley Lines and Enochian.

It's one thing if they made Black Mage to be "#1 Top DPS" Job, but the cost is completely expert usage of Enochian and Ley Lines, but it's not (re: Raid Bosses). And even if you do everything right, the reports from veteran BLMs are that they're not even close to Top Tier DPS. And if you can't get perfect usage? Your DPS plummets to the bottom.

It's just poorly designed, and in the end, *EVERY* single time you get forced to interrupt / move reinforces to the player how much they HATE the Black Mage's new abilities. It's just NOT FUN.

And jobs shouldn't be designed that way, right?

[Yeldir]

And even if you do everything right, the reports from veteran BLMs are that they're not even close to Top Tier DPS.

Well, it isn't quite so bad as this. BLM is competitive in most fights, played perfectly. It typically trails good melee dps by 50 or so. I'd say we are close to top tier, we just aren't top tier, and we're a hell of a lot harder than a Silver Medal DPS class should be. We agree in principle, definitely.

[OneWingedSora]

http://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Army%27s_Paeon
This is used extensively and to great effect in melee heavy groups. Moreover, not every raid, even competitive ones, have bards, so there's a certain perversity in judging the state of BLM by it.

Because Bards should be starting the fight with Army's Paeon right ? Aside from A2S, TP/MP aren't even an issue anymore due to fights having lots of downtime. And even assuming we get other fights with no breaks, Foes should still be played atleast twice per fight.

So yeah, your point about Foes not being used for the sake of "buffing" melees is invalid.

I would argue against that. It is extremely short duration, long cooldown, and the majority of hits the taken by the targets you'll be using it on ignore it entirely. There aren't many bosses where the tank gets completely hosed with magic damage within the first ten seconds of the fight. It's something we use because if we don't use it, it doesn't get used.

My support comment was intended to illustrate that you really can't justify the current state of Black Mages based on their support capabilities. In fact, this is the first time I've ever seen someone try. We're not Bards, and we can't accept inferiority in our primary role based on what we offer to others in our group, because what we offer to others in our group is trivial in nature.

Savage A3 and A1 tend to disagree with you. Apoc is used to a great extend there and helps make healers life much easier which leads to more healing DPS.

Also, did Apoc recently receive a nerf where it's only usable in the first ten seconds of the fight or something ? I don't understand your comment on that part. Please elaborate.