Strength Tanks and You.

[elemental10]

Please tell me how does excess Vitality contribute to the goal of defeating the boss? If you know the tank buster timing, the required eHP, healing required, and can properly execute cooldowns then what is the function of your extraneous stat allotment?

It does decrease the margin of error. If anything doesn't go well, like you missed a CD to a tank buster or for some reason the healer lagged while at that part, the extra HP would definitely be a safe backup.

Now, I'm not saying that it's better or worse. It is a right of choice for those who choose to go that way. If the stated factors that you said are all in-line with each other and executed perfectly, please by all means go STR.

A VIT build does not help to contribute to the goal of finishing a run, but it does provide a safety net for those that does not feel confident in himself or any other person. It doesn't mean that the extra VIT is bad.

VIT is not bad nor STR is all superior in all situation. Both is not the end-all for anything. The key here is to be versatile and adapt to your situations. The healer can't heal you up to the required HP? Go get some VIT to make sure you don't die. You can skip
a phase and help the team better? Go get STR to do that.

Both is good. It's just a matter of situation.

[elemental10]

snip

Sorry for double posting but this guy nails a point.

A good tank always hit his CDs at the right time. Regardless of what his build is. It is the basis of a good tank to properly manage his CDs, it is not a specialty to any kind of tanks out there. I have no comment if this some form of skill or whatever.

This guy misses his point by kind of slapping the STR build because some people argue that a STR build requires skill.

My question is, what exactly is the skills that is required in order to go for STR? Managing CDs, timing big hits... What else?

[Pyroxene]

I'm a bad tank no matter WHAT gear I wear

[Krylo]

My question is, what exactly is the skills that is required in order to go for STR? Managing CDs, timing big hits... What else?

Basically the same as vit but with less margin of error and a greater reliance on your own self heals (which are also boosted by str) to relieve healer stress--if this is done right, healers need to do less for a str tank than a vit tank.

Although, on the margin of error, you can choose to have very little: Enough HP to survive one mitigated tank buster + auto attack crit (on the off chance that happens), or enough HP to have pretty similar to a vit build: Enough HP to survive one unmitigated tank buster + auto attack crit.

The thing is, though, that other than, maybe, Alexander Savage when the servers come back up (and maybe Rav ex? I've not been in there, been lazy), there's nothing that requires even a single piece of vit to reach enough hp to survive unmitigated tank busters + auto attack crit. Which is to say, vit doesn't really increase your margin of error very much, unless your healer is literally asleep.

[Kirana]

Sorry for double posting but this guy nails a point.

A good tank always hit his CDs at the right time. Regardless of what his build is. It is the basis of a good tank to properly manage his CDs, it is not a specialty to any kind of tanks out there. I have no comment if this some form of skill or whatever.

This guy misses his point by kind of slapping the STR build because some people argue that a STR build requires skill.

My question is, what exactly is the skills that is required in order to go for STR? Managing CDs, timing big hits... What else?

Being a skilled player is more than just actually playing your class. Knowing how the game mechanics work and picking the right gear to maximize your success is part of being skilled. Stacking VIT in excess is a sign of not fully understanding the mechanics of the game and how to fully exploit them.

[dank1]

You're not "pushing yourself" by putting out a little more damage thanks to swapping in some strength gear. You're doing the same thing the other tanks are doing, except your gear is letting you hit a little bit harder (at the cost of a significant chunk of health loss). You can all stop patting yourselves on the back now for being on the bleeding edge of tanking, or whatever nonsense you think you're doing.


Man, I miss the MMO population from back when these types of of games were a whole lot less popular. The way you guys think makes me facepalm in real life.

Youve obviously never seen the dps a tank can push with an efficient party because you refuse to let go of this "tanks only tank" mindset, which is fine and all just know who to thank when that DF pug meets the dps check cause the tank is topping the dps chart and you get your first clear

[elemental10]

snip

In that situation, the one you stated about enough HP + mitigation, and more HP + unmitigated) I would agree and if the tank pulls off the mitigation correctly, then that is considered skill and experience. That is the case of where everything would fall in place perfectly.

The assuming factor in your situation is the state of the healer. There are a lot of factors in determining how a good situation would turn very bad and most of it stem from your healer. Exaggerating, if the healer suddenly has a problem with his hardware, or a situation in which he cannot heal (such as he died), the excess VIT will decrease the chances of a wipe. The other healer can possibly keep you up at enough health to raise the dead healer or replace him for a short while. This is the situation which I had brought up.

Any tank busters in the game would not reduce the tank's HP to zero, merely to a critical point. In having a certain amount of VIT, that critical point can be avoided, therefore decreasing the margin of error. Again, this is up to the healer. If he is prepared to heal you up, that's good. If he does not? Then your extra VIT kicks in and you may survive long enough until the heal comes back again.

snip

Then, therefore by stacking VIT in excess and he knows he does not fully well know certain mechanic (I assume mechanics such as big hits, and so on) is a reasonable choice and does not perpetuate that the tank is bad. Merely, inexperienced in said content. Once he has known how to handle game mechanics and gearing choices, I assume he would want to go STR. Again, this is a choice for tanks.

However, stacking VIT in excess does not REALLY mean he doesn't fully understand the mechanics of the game. He may have chosen so because it was his preferences to have a certain HP threshold to go certain contents.

What I'm getting to is, excess VIT doesn't really mean the tank is bad. It means he has excess VIT, that's all. These judgements that excess VIT is a bad thing for tanks is, in my opinion, not true. It merely says that the tank has more HP, that's all.

In regards to comments that the excess VIT can be exchanged for something better, such as STR, I would say that is also a reasonable choice. Provided he is confident in his skills to survive any kinds of mistakes or slip ups from his teammates.

I know that I sound like I support the notion that we need more VIT or pro-Vit build but I merely want to convene that having a little bit of excess VIT (or more) does have it's own merit and cannot be shrugged off as a bad choice.

[elemental10]

I'm a bad tank no matter WHAT gear I wear

Thank you for admitting that and this is the one of the reason excess VIT is a very reasonable choice. The errors/mistakes that you would've done would result in a less "panicky" situation, or worse resulting in your death and the wipe of the team.

No matter what build a tank goes, it doesn't mean he is either skilled or unskilled. It is merely an illusion of choice. A full VIT tank can be more skilled than a full STR tank.

Oh and if the tank is out DPSing a DPS... something is wrong with that DPS.

[Krylo]

I know that I sound like I support the notion that we need more VIT or pro-Vit build but I merely want to convene that having a little bit of excess VIT (or more) does have it's own merit and cannot be shrugged off as a bad choice.

I mean, sure, but go through general discussion and look at the OP of every thread bringing this up: It's always accusing str tanks of being poor. Which puts them on the defensive. So they start talking about the benefits, and then vit tanks go on the defensive and it turns into a mess.

Most people don't actually care how you gear your tank in casual content as long as you're doing okay, and in hardcore content that's between you and your static/LS/Guild/whatever, and no one else.

The reason these threads get like they are is. . . well read the OP and pretend he was talking about your main class/build and tell me how you'd feel?

Edit: Better yet, find Aeyis's posts and just read those and tell me how you'd feel?

Or in other words:

[elemental10]

The reason these threads get like they are is. . . well read the OP and pretend he was talking about your main class/build and tell me how you'd feel?

Yes, I do feel that some of my fellow tanks are being irresponsible in letting healers having a bad time healing us and I do feel the flak sometimes. I myself go for full STR on the casual PUGs but I try my best to give the healer a comfortable healing pace. If he is casting Cure during a fight, he should not be casting Cure 2 instead. When he does starting to cast Cure 2, I would instantly bring up my buffs, to reduce the "healing stress," if some would lead to believe.

Well, he is talking about my main (WAR). We are the least liked tank to be healing for. I do recognize his plight to say that full STR doesn't help healers, but either he has been running with poor tanks or he needs to upgrade his gears.