Ending the Parry debate once and for all

[BadRNG]

This is all well and good, but you are much like several other people who ignore the fact that SE has explicitly said that they DO want tanks to DPS more. Tanks CAN and DO do well when it comes to DPS, and our HP pools already make most damage a joke to deal with. So what's the thought in going against what SE has said they already want by requesting tanks be pigeon holed into a defensive stat?

I'm not sure if you quoted the wrong person, or if you simply didn't understand my post. You are arguing against a point I never made. I suppose I should point out I actually MT in STR accessories for content with my static, and that tank dps can certainly be decent. But none of that has anything to do with what I said.

As for what SE "wants", I can't speak for SE, but if it is the comment I am thinking of, you are likely taking what SE said out of context. Accounting for tank dps in fight design does not mean they expect all tanks to be in full STR gear and constantly stance dancing for optimum dps at all times. It could just as easily mean they account for tank dps in general - even a vit tank will be producing non-negligible dps. In fact it is highly unlikely they assume all tanks are set up that way, or that they even intend for them to be, after all - why design the fending accessories to begin with? Why even have a parry stat?

If anything you are asking for them to be pigeon holed into offensive stats by keeping parry so ineffective. As I said in my previous post, making parry relevant doesn't need to be the end of str accessories. It would simply make the choice even more meaningful. Some would choose the mitigation at all times, some would choose the damage at all times, and smart people would get a set of both and use whatever the situation demands. Essentially the same situation we are in now, except never feeling like having parry on a left side piece may be a "wasted" stat.

[Zfz]

It could just as easily mean they account for tank dps in general - even a vit tank will be producing non-negligible dps.

The actual, exact words used by Yoshi-P is this:

レイド攻略の際には一般の腕のプレーヤーがクリアできるであろうアイテムレベルを想定しています。その想定アイテムレベルに到達した4DPSとタンクの基礎DPSを合算して、さらに10％から15％のしきい値を下げてクリア想定を作っています。ヒーラーのDPSは計算に入れていません。

We take the item level at which we think the average-skilled player should be able to clear the content, use the dps that can be produced from that item level, take the sum of 4DPS and tank's base dps, then lower that by 10-15% to be the clear threshold. Healer dps is not counted.

So they account for the base tank dps, which some people seem to take to mean full STR build plus STR accessories and tanking in the dps stance.

[dragoelete]

The actual, exact words used by Yoshi-P is this:

レイド攻略の際には一般の腕のプレーヤーがクリアできるであろうアイテムレベルを想定しています。その想定アイテムレベルに到達した4DPSとタンクの基礎DPSを合算して、さらに10％から15％のしきい値を下げてクリア想定を作っています。ヒーラーのDPSは計算に入れていません。

We take the item level at which we think the average-skilled player should be able to clear the content, use the dps that can be produced from that item level, take the sum of 4DPS and tank's base dps, then lower that by 10-15% to be the clear threshold. Healer dps is not counted.

So they account for the base tank dps, which some people seem to take to mean full STR build plus STR accessories and tanking in the dps stance.

if so then those people are pretty stupid... because the word base would imply the damage they do with only the armor and without any accessory's or stat points...

[VargasVermillion]

No ones saying you need extra str on tanks though, just that it's more helpful than parry and excess vit. If you want to go all VIT than go ahead, it's just that if you know how to mitigate damage than you don't need as much vit. Parry isn't even considered because it's never a deciding factor as to weather you live or die in any fight ever. I imagine SE at least expects tanks to optimize their damage rotations however, like any class in the game. Extra str would be optional though. (unless you are going for world firsts I guess.)

The way some people go about these arguments makes it sound like they have to str spec and all that. You don't really need to. Is it sub-optimal? Yes, but not needed for clearing content. Kinda like parry actually.

[Ceodore]

No ones saying you need extra str on tanks though, just that it's more helpful than parry and excess vit. If you want to go all VIT than go ahead, it's just that if you know how to mitigate damage than you don't need as much vit. Parry isn't even considered because it's never a deciding factor as to weather you live or die in any fight ever. I imagine SE at least expects tanks to optimize their damage rotations however, like any class in the game. Extra str would be optional though. (unless you are going for world firsts I guess.)

The way some people go about these arguments makes it sound like they have to str spec and all that. You don't really need to. Is it sub-optimal? Yes, but not needed for clearing content. Kinda like parry actually.

Precisely! STR accessories means you just clear that content that much quicker. An inflated HP pool doesn't help as much as more damage going out if your group is skilled enough.

[Zfz]

Precisely! STR accessories means you just clear that content that much quicker. An inflated HP pool doesn't help as much as more damage going out if your group is skilled enough.

If your group is skill enough, adding a few hundred dps doesn't help except "that much quicker". That's all.

1. STR helps you push phases and win fights that you otherwise would have failed; and
2. if your group is skilled enough you don't need the VIT anyway

But if your group is skilled enough, you don't need that few hundred dps anyway. If your group is good enough your few hundred dps as a tank is not needed, as much as that few thousand HP isn't needed as a tank.

If your group is good enough. If your group is good enough is the premise on any and all STR arguments. Yet they act as if even the best of best groups need your few hundred dps, while the truth is in a group that is good enough, your tank dps increase of 400dps doesn't make a significant difference.

Even bad PLD tanks can easily dish out 300dps, as 300 tank dps is "garbage" according to STR supporters. The difference between a bad PLD and a good WAR is less than 500dps. If your group is good enough, the 4 DPS together already gives you 4000~5000dps, while in a bad group with everyone at less than 500dps, the whole raid is doing 3000~4000dps.

VIT is always evaluated with a bad group. STR is always evaluated with a good group, hence VIT is useless as you fail more, STR is what gets you wins.

The truth is, besides the absolute top-end world-first competition, and the absolute low-end enrage raider, STR vs VIT doesn't make a difference. The 80% of the groups somewhere between the two extremes will be making mistakes and still winning fights, and both STR and VIT helps equally.

Don't mistake me as saying STR doesn't help. But it isn't always the necessity many people make it sound. Unless your group is having dps troubles clearing content, your STR wasn't the deciding factor making the win. Far from it. Only when you are hitting enrage and the fight is taking ages to complete, would your STR become the deciding factor.

[Launched]

If your group is skill enough, adding a few hundred dps doesn't help except "that much quicker". That's all.

More DPS always helps, it doesn't matter if it's progression or farm. Having enough to get 5 bennus instead of 6 at final coil made the fight so much easier. Getting 4 after a few weeks of drops made it even easier still. DPS lets you push phases and skip mechanics, it's easily worth the effort to maximize.