Strength Tanks and You.

[Xoriam]

Our WAR tank consistently pulls around 900 dps and our DRK does similar, and the loss of vitality doesn't even matter because right now there is no fight in HW that will put a tank in serious danger unless their healer is off drooling on their keyboard.

Savage Alex will most likely change that this week, but below that there really isn't any reason to be stacking full VIT.

This.

A4 is currently the only fight you "kinda" need vit on, and thats only if you're Main tanking. no other fights have HP requirements atm.
If the tank is dying in STR accs, he was probably gonna die anyways even if he had VIT accs.

[Vesuvias]

simple thought, how about we just class lock accessories?

Because as it sits, as a tank i really dont see why i need to help the dps pick of the slack of not doing their own jobs. but before people go off the deep end how about we just stop and think about this, I get that people think that we dont need to have 20k(random number) hp but at the end of the day, what does that allow a tank to do? last time I looked that allowed a tank to survive what ever came at him, all the while allowing the healers to not have to spam cure, physick,etc... till their heads explode, which also means they get to be more efficient with their own mp. But also I think this comes down to the fact of the matter are the dps equivalently geared for their role? because again why do the tank/healer need to do more then their role? we are supposed to be the guys that keep the party alive, not the guys who are "OMG DPS MOR!!!!!!!!!!!"

though perhaps this should be seen as a failing on SE's part because well the only mechanics they seem to rely upon atm are the mechanics of dps checks, insta-death, and lastly team jump rope. which really seems to limit the amount of play styles, interest in repeating said dungeons once you get your gear, and even the length of the dungeons is pretty sad compared to some other games.

[Zfz]

The source is I think the same thing we both refer to. He said that CURRENTLY, encounters are not tuned with healers and tank DPSing in mind, but seeing what crazy things high-end raiders were able to do by optimizing their healer and tank DPS, they decided to build fights with this new factor in mind for Heavensward raids, thus increasing the difficulty a bit. Beating an enrage timer will be really tougher than it is now.

This one? http://game.watch.impress.co.jp/docs...26_703330.html

そうですね。レベル60で全ジョブとも今まで以上にDPSが上がっているので、白魔道士も見合った分だけ伸びるという意味なだけです。もともと開発チームでは、大迷宮バハムートなど、レイド攻略の際には一般の腕のプレーヤーがクリアできるであろうアイテムレベルを想定しています。その想定アイテムレベルに到達した4DPSとタンクの基礎DPSを合算して、さらに10％から15％のしきい値を下げてクリア想定を作っています。ヒーラーのDPSは計算に入れていません。

　ただ、確かに世界トップレベルの人たちは、最速攻略争いをするので、開発が想定したアイテムレベルよりも、低いアイテムレベルでクリアを目指します。そうなると、4DSPとタンクの基礎DPSだけでは数値的にクリアできなくなり、結果、出せるDPSがあるなら、少しでも多くDPSを、ということで彼らはヒーラーのDPSも計算して攻略しようとします。それらのクリア動画が出ると、ヒーラーもDPSを出しているため、「ヒーラーもDPSを！」と思われがちですが、それは「無理をしてクリアしようとしている」から発生しているシチュエーションです。これを完全に数値で足切りして、想定アイテムレベル以下ではクリアできないように作ることも可能なのですが、それではプレーヤースキルの高い人たちに、工夫して全員の意思疎通やアイテム理解度を上げ、ギリギリのギリギリを付いてクリアする、という遊びを無くしてしまうことになります。難しい判断ではありますが、やはり固定パーティーの方針次第かなと思っています。

　このことは今回機工城アレキサンダーがノーマルとハードの2つを実装することになった理由の一因でもあります。繰り返しになりますが、開発チームはレイドの攻略にヒーラーのDPSを含めていませんので、今回のレベルキャップ開放でも他のジョブと比べて、ヒーラーとしての上昇分を足しただけと思って欲しいです。

You must be referring to something else I don't know about, because in this, there's nothing about building fights with healer and tank dps in mind.

What it does say, is that they take the 4DPS+Tank's base dps, lower that by 10~15%, and that's the minimum dps you need to clear that encounter.

[Eye_Gore]

Your job, like everyone else in your raid group, is to defeat the encounter.

No, thats not my job, that is the role of the entire party, to win. My primary job and concern is to keep you guys from taking damage so you can do your primary job, DPS. Dealing damage from me is secondary. If the DPS can't mage to put out enough to defeat the encounter, then maybe they should check their gear. If I wanted to DPS, I wouldn't be playing PLD. If the encounter is won, did it really matter how much DPS I put out, or that it was only me taking all the damage? Is that much time saved that it didn't ruin everyones day?

[Hundred]

Then what was the point in that extra HP to begin with?

The actual reality is that overhealing is typical. If you heal a Vit tank and a Str tank the exact same amount of times for an encounter you'll eventually get a free cure due to the extra health from overhealing.
Health regen is also based off of your maximum health, so a Vit tank has higher Health regen per second then a STR tank.
This can all be trivial or it can be relevent.

The debate is largely nonsensical regardless. Tanks deal their necessary damage just by properly holding hate. Tanks doing insufficient damage lose aggro to competent dps.The Extra Str of a STR tank has the ability to make the content go faster.
If someone fucks up however then you lose the entire speed advantage so the performance of the players is key to making this run correctly, Vit builds have a notably larger margin of error and have significantly higher effective health.

Given I play the tank I only have to concern myself with 1 other tank but if I were the DPS or the healer I wouldn't really give a damn which one so long as we completed. I remember an A2 run Im in full str the other tank is in Hybrid gear. Should I go "Your hybrid gear has a bunch of unnecessary vit, and you have less str then me get gud"? Nope, it doesn't even matter.

[MisterLucie]

No, thats not my job, that is the role of the entire party, to win. My primary job and concern is to keep you guys from taking damage so you can do your primary job, DPS. Dealing damage from me is secondary. If the DPS can't mage to put out enough to defeat the encounter, then maybe they should check their gear. If I wanted to DPS, I wouldn't be playing PLD. If the encounter is won, did it really matter how much DPS I put out, or that it was only me taking all the damage? Is that much time saved that it didn't ruin everyones day?

So, essentially, you're just saying that you don't want to have to do anything more than the bare minimum required for your role.

That's fine. A lot of people play like that, and it's fine if you're just doing easy content like primals or normal Alex, which I suspect most people who regurgitate the "tanks having to dps is dumb" nonsense are. It's not fine if you intend to actually do anything that requires effort, though. You're needlessly hampering your team because of senseless stubbornness.

[Khemorex]

So, essentially, you're just saying that you don't want to have to do anything more than the bare minimum required for your role.

That's fine. A lot of people play like that, and it's fine if you're just doing easy content like primals or normal Alex, which I suspect most people who regurgitate the "tanks having to dps is dumb" nonsense are. It's not fine if you intend to actually do anything that requires effort, though. You're needlessly hampering your team because of senseless stubbornness.

na we are just playing our role how its supposed to be , not what u want to make out of it , if ur group requires tank dps to success then ur undergeared

[Tyrial]

na we are just playing our role how its supposed to be , not what u want to make out of it , if ur group requires tank dps to success then ur undergeared

Or his group realizes that there's no point in a tank sitting there doing nothing but eating hits to the face or a healer standing around twiddling their thumbs if there's no healing to be done or doing nothing but spamming heals. Why do you see it as such a horrible thing to optimize how you play your class? Why is it a horrible thing that a tank wants to put out as much DPS as they can while still performing their role of effectively mitigating damage and holding aggro?

[Eye_Gore]

So, essentially, you're just saying that you don't want to have to do anything more than the bare minimum required for your role.

If I wanted to do bare minimum I would stay in ilvl60 gear. Not many people want to do bare minimum. The thing is the argument is really a moot point. The are ups and downs to both sides. There really is no right or wrong answer. Though I have to wonder has anyone ever blamed a loss on a tank because they didn't have enough DPS?

[MisterLucie]

na we are just playing our role how its supposed to be , not what u want to make out of it , if ur group requires tank dps to success then ur undergeared

Nowhere did I say that tank DPS is required to win a fight. I said it helps. It helps prevent adds from living long enough to be dangerous and it helps healer MP by ensuring no element of the fight drags out too long.

Do you have trouble with reading comprehension along with being a team player?