Astrologian buffs confirmed

[Rahaya]

I realize all of this, and E4E is still better than a buff that cannot be relied upon

And it's not like that's SCH's only option: SCH could spend one Aetherflow stack to put up a Sacred Soil to shield everyone inside it from 10% damage, without having to worry about drawing an Aetherflow randomly first.

So can Nocturnal AST. Collective Unconscious is not RNG based either. Saying 'but the SCH/WHM can do something else' to make a point as if the AST couldn't is bad arguing. Sure, it's on a longer CD, but doesn't need to eat a stack either. I'm pretty sure it also stacks with the Sacred Soil. Disable stacks with Virus. Using it in the middle of the cast bar eliminates invisible auto attacks taking it off. The WHM can't do that *at all.*

Better is subjective. I can't rely on an Eye for an Eye proc either. That was the whole point of the 'worthless against magic damage and 20% chance applied for every target for 120 CD' spiel.

Hard for it to be relevant when the raid wipes.

And considering the chances against it happening, it's WAY too small of a buff.

Part of the problem is that SE doesn't seem to grasp how "risk vs. reward" happens to work. If AST is to be a tradeoff class that provides extra DPS and utility in exchange for weaker emergency options, then those buffs have to deliver tangible results.

The buffs can occasionally boost DPS 17% of the time, but AST is lacking weaker emergency options and coverage 100% of the time, and unlike the DPS boost, those are absolutely needed to save the group from wiping.

Where is the 17% coming from, might I ask? And why on earth is 'DPS boost' the only thing that matters when the cards are very versatile? We just covered Bole. The card RNG means that while you can't rely on a specific effect right when you want it, there is always something beneficial. Spear is also a dps boost. Not needing to sing/Promote because of Spire draws is a DPS increase. Or it could be used on the tank for a minute off Hallowed Ground, or arrow for mini Presence of Mind. They do have tangible results. You say that like progression isn't that one percent more. Everything is tangible.

If Final Coil is any indication, SCH/AST is a great combo because raw HPS hasn't been a thing since Twintania when we were undergeared. More healing is nice, but the worth of it goes down the more one shot mechanics there are. No crafting gear takes away all healer accuracy for DPS making it SCH > AST > WHM. Effective HP? SCH > AST > WHM. Group DPS? Again.... SCH > AST > WHM. AST needs buffing, but it isn't 2.0 WAR.

[GideonHighmourn]

snip

The point RichardButte is trying to make is that all of AST's utility is RNG based (17% chance = 1 in 6 chance of drawing), and doesn't make up for the difference between lack of healing cool downs no matter how you split the numbers. Yes, the other cards' effects are beneficial on paper, however, in reality, drawing the ideal card at the ideal time is incredibly unlikely, and even when it happens, it's incredibly underwhelming as a core class mechanic. "Everything is tangible" is correct; however, not everything is "useful" in the grand scheme of things. Card buffs in particular are far more fickle and situational than people realize, and generally don't line up with mechanics like SCH's utility can. And since AST lacks any sort of emergency cool downs, they are a liability to whatever group brings them because their WHM/SCH partner is going to have to make up for the difference.

At very the very best of draws, AST can only add 5%~ DPS to a single target over the course of a fight; that's an incredibly abysmal number in the grand scheme of a fight, and at the cost of any sort of emergency cool downs, isn't worth the trade off.

[Rahaya]

The point RichardButte is trying to make is that all of AST's utility is RNG based (17% chance = 1 in 6 chance of drawing), and doesn't make up for the difference between lack of healing cool downs no matter how you split the numbers.

That's why I question the 17% as that is drawing 1 card when 3 of them increase DPS. And for that 1 card Balance I have to ask, do you know how much Trick Attack increases DPS over the course of the fight? About 2%. How about Foe's? Even less.

That is the problem with that argument. The cards are the opposite of 'underwhelming.' What exactly are you expecting? For the AST to boost overall raid damage by 10% with good RNG? That's what I meant by SE has to balance against good, bad and average RNG. It's closer to 50-50 for drawing a card that increases dps. Depending on the length of Savage fights, Spire negating Paeon is another boost.

You don't need an 'ideal' time to throw up a card. The Ewer/Spire cards aren't refreshes precisely so throwing them on someone even at 1000 TP. As long as they are hitting buttons, that's never wasted. We have Spread for a reason. An Aoe Balance as long as people are hitting things is never wasted and is still 5 percent raid dps for fifteen seconds. Requires more set up than the NIN. 3% more for 5 seconds longer balanced against pulling that same trick 2 cards later to make up for that. Might be nicer and 'ideal' for burn phases, but that doesn't make drawing it suddenly not count. 10% less tank damage. As long as the tank is being hit, never wasted. 10% less healing, less mana used, greater safety margin.

The reason why I am arguing is because a lot of people are going way overboard buffing cards AND the CDs and making a monster healer for no reason. A card is every thirty seconds. It can't be 'flashy' and pack a lot of oomph because in half a minute, there is another card.

[Cynfael]

That's why I question the 17% as that is drawing 1 card when 3 of them increase DPS. And for that 1 card Balance I have to ask, do you know how much Trick Attack increases DPS over the course of the fight? About 2%. How about Foe's? Even less.

That is the problem with that argument. The cards are the opposite of 'underwhelming.' What exactly are you expecting? For the AST to boost overall raid damage by 10% with good RNG? That's what I meant by SE has to balance against good, bad and average RNG. It's closer to 50-50 for drawing a card that increases dps. Depending on the length of Savage fights, Spire negating Paeon is another boost.

What is this third card that increases DPS? If you mean Spear, your mileage varies drastically depending on when you get and upon whom you put it. There are too many variables involved to position Spear as any kind of significant, consistent DPS increase, even as far as "consistent" goes for AST.

Putting aside for the moment the fundamental issue of it being statistically possible (though somewhat improbable) that you fail to draw any cards that are useful for your situation, look at the possibilities that exist. Let's examine what is arguably the biggest offender, Spire, which is useless so much of the time.

In order for Spire to be useful...

...it must be drawn and applied before major TP expenditure begins.
...it must be drawn when you have players in your party who actually use significant TP.
...it must be drawn and applied before your TP user(s) are already so low on resources that they receive minimal benefit.
...your party must actually be in danger of running out of TP, which doesn't even happen in all raid situations due to breaks in the action during phase changes.

Spire cannot compete with Paeon in the big picture. Situationally it's possible, but that's a damned specific situation.

[GideonHighmourn]

snip

Again, you're looking at things on paper, in a vacuum, and missing the point entirely.

[RichardButte]

I'm not going to lie, I totally forgot about how horrible that would be in game design. Completely switching party setup to make up to cover up one member. Thank's for pointing that out!

No worries. I'm not trying to sound mean or anything so please don't read it that way.

I want to main AST. For as effective as SCH is, I've always found it a bit on the bland side. I'd just literally feel bad trying to bring an AST to my static.

[Ghishlain]

No worries. I'm not trying to sound mean or anything so please don't read it that way.

I want to main AST. For as effective as SCH is, I've always found it a bit on the bland side. I'd just literally feel bad trying to bring an AST to my static.

I will say this. Don't feel bad. If you enjoy the class, regardless of its faults, you can learn to work around its weaknesses and play it well.

Play what you enjoy.

[Rahaya]

In order for Spire to be useful...

...it must be drawn and applied before major TP expenditure begins.
...it must be drawn when you have players in your party who actually use significant TP.
...it must be drawn and applied before your TP user(s) are already so low on resources that they receive minimal benefit.
...your party must actually be in danger of running out of TP, which doesn't even happen in all raid situations due to breaks in the action during phase changes.

Spire cannot compete with Paeon in the big picture. Situationally it's possible, but that's a damned specific situation.

One question. What raid situations? The 'damned specific situation' being Has a PLD or DRK tank and 1 TP user that isn't a MNK? Let me borrow your time machine to check out Alex Savage. Just because it isn't straight damage doesn't mean its worthless. Spear is a marginal DPS increase, yes. It still is one, however. Less simple to math, but there nonetheless. Arrow was also excluded from that 17%.

Again, you're looking at things on paper, in a vacuum, and missing the point entirely.

Considering I already posted that AST needs it's 3 CDs changed to healing CDs/better raid utility what point am I missing? (And that is terrible debate technique. Stating that I am 'missing the point' without elaborating what point that is).

[Cynfael]

One question. What raid situations? The 'damned specific situation' being Has a PLD or DRK tank and 1 TP user that isn't a MNK? Let me borrow your time machine to check out Alex Savage.

You may borrow my time machine to make the correct decision not to be a smartass if you want to have a gameplay discussion.

Given that I completed all raid content including T13 prior to 3.0, I think I have enough experience to identify a pattern and make an educated guess. If anything, we've seen an increase in the occurrence of phase changes that remove bosses from the board or otherwise enforce DPS downtime. It's quite reasonable to predict that the current mix of "omg my TP is gone" and "omg my stacks are falling off, hurry up" phase transitions will continue.

You also continue to miss the point that resource cost mitigation is useless if no one is at risk of running out of resources in the first place. This makes Spire even weaker if you consider it outside of a raid setting.

[Rahaya]

Given that I completed all raid content including T13 prior to 3.0, I think I have enough experience to identify a pattern and make an educated guess. If anything, we've seen an increase in the occurrence of phase changes that remove bosses from the board or otherwise enforce DPS downtime. It's quite reasonable to predict that the current mix of "omg my TP is gone" and "omg my stacks are falling off, hurry up" phase transitions will continue.

You also continue to miss the point that resource cost mitigation is useless if no one is at risk of running out of resources in the first place. This makes Spire even weaker if you consider it outside of a raid setting.

You guys keep using that phrase. 'Miss the point.' You are not using it correctly or do not know what it means. I addressed that. I asked what raid situation. That's a direct reference to your last bullet point regarding action breaks. By that logic, half the utility of BRDs and MCN are of no use whatsoever. Goad? No one needs Goad. I find that assumption problematic as even in 'easy' content there is a need for it. It is indeed situational. I didn't say it wasn't. So is singing Paeon. It also costs the AST nothing to use, and can't exactly be wasted like Goad can. I mean, yes, I don't use most of my SCH cooldowns outside of raid too. That is...not a very good argument. I said 'just because it isn't a straight damage increase != worthless.'

No more or less.