Parry is useless. Can we change it?

[Giantbane]

I was kinda bored and didn't feel like leveling.

354 Parry(Base)

Tsanahale: 1,201 Swings, 1,097 Hits, 104 Misses, 62 parries, 0 block(no shield)
( 62 parries / 1,097 hits ) * 100 = 5.652% parry rate

456 Parry
Tsanahale: 376 Swings, 349 Hits, 27 Misses, 18 Parries, 0 block(no shield)
oops I killed it
Tsanahale #2: 561 Swings, 507 hits, 54 misses, 38 parries, 0 block(no shield)

Tsanahle Total: 937 Swings, 856 Hits, 81 Misses, 56 parries, 0 block(o shield)
( 56 parries / 856 hits ) * 100 = 6.542% parry rate

Parry Rate Dif: 6.542% - 5.652% = 0.89%
Parry Dif: 456-354 = 102

+102 parry over base resulted in a parry rate increase of 0.89%

So apparently by this guys math.

100 parry = 0.887% Parry chance.

Which means Parry is, by all means now. Completely worthless. Good day.

I really hope that's wrong somehow, that's awful

[Izsha]

I really hope that's wrong somehow, that's awful

Actually that makes 100 parry equal 0.873% higher proc rate.

In other words it takes (estimated) 114.6 parry to raise parry rate by 1%. As parry is a 20% flat reduction, it takes 5% parry to rate to equal 1% avg mitigation (phy attacks only).

Based on the test, it takes roughly 573 parry to reduce incoming (phy only, and hitting you from the front) by ONE PERCENT.

Now let's pretend that every single solitary piece of i190 war gear had max parry in every slot. Hive battle axe and full alex gear, pretending that the highest secondary stat on every piece was parry. 83 on axe, 77 on body and legs, 47 on hands/ft/head and 36 on belt and all accs (and an imaginary 2nd 190 ring).

That 100% maxed out 190 parry set has 594 parry. Remember it takes 573 to get 1% mitigation (5% proc rate and 20% mitigation on proc).

Congrats. Gearing balls ti the wall parry in every sslot using the highest ilvl gear in the game and imagining they all had parry max on them you mitigate....

Wait for it.......

1.037% more damage than wearing ZERO PARRY.

Maxed out parry gear that doesn't even exist reduces damage by 1% over having absolutely no parry at all on gear.

Parry sucks. It's worthless. Period. The end.

GOOD DAY SIR!

[Ashkendor]

Maxed out parry gear that doesn't even exist reduces damage by 1% over having absolutely no parry at all on gear.

Pretty much exactly why I swapped my Parry for Det/Crit and never looked back.

Too much investment, not enough return.

[Ceodore]

Actually that makes 100 parry equal 0.873% higher proc rate.

In other words it takes (estimated) 114.6 parry to raise parry rate by 1%. As parry is a 20% flat reduction, it takes 5% parry to rate to equal 1% avg mitigation (phy attacks only).

Based on the test, it takes roughly 573 parry to reduce incoming (phy only, and hitting you from the front) by ONE PERCENT.

Now let's pretend that every single solitary piece of i190 war gear had max parry in every slot. Hive battle axe and full alex gear, pretending that the highest secondary stat on every piece was parry. 83 on axe, 77 on body and legs, 47 on hands/ft/head and 36 on belt and all accs (and an imaginary 2nd 190 ring).

That 100% maxed out 190 parry set has 594 parry. Remember it takes 573 to get 1% mitigation (5% proc rate and 20% mitigation on proc).

Congrats. Gearing balls ti the wall parry in every sslot using the highest ilvl gear in the game and imagining they all had parry max on them you mitigate....

Wait for it.......

1.037% more damage than wearing ZERO PARRY.

Maxed out parry gear that doesn't even exist reduces damage by 1% over having absolutely no parry at all on gear.

Parry sucks. It's worthless. Period. The end.

GOOD DAY SIR!

First of all, you're assuming that there is no minimum Parry Rate. However, by Nekt's own math, there is a minimum Parry Rate that comes stock of almost 2.5%. According to his math, 102 parry = about .887% parry. If you then subtract all his parry at the same rate, or rate being x=.887/102, you actually come to a base of about 2.5% parry rate even if your Parry is 0. So, assuming a rate of 100 parry = .873% increase in parry rate, you actually come to 5% parry rate at 312 Parry, not 573. At 573 parry, you would have a parry rate of 7.5% about

However, that's besides the point. Parry as it is is fairly weak. However, that doesn't mean that it needs some major rework, as all the secondaries are actually fairly weak anyways as far as any form of mitigation is concerned. This is to help tanks build towards damage more too. I don't want to personally see a big overhaul that makes Parry a huge necessity for tanks anyways because then it would no longer allow for any sort of class freedom. I'm quite happy dropping into STR trinkets as often as possible and losing my parry. It doesn't bother me. I can, however, see the necessity for some kind of buff to the secondary, but it should be something minor, which is why I have repeatedly suggested it should increase both rate and mitigation. Something along the lines of say maybe getting +1% more parry mitigation for every 20 parry you get. It isn't a big buff, and wouldn't make the secondary required, however, it would make it suck a little less that it doesn't feel like a complete waste like it does now. You would get more benefit towards your mitigation this way too when you use your VIT trinkets if necessary, but not feel like you lost a ton of mitigation if you switch into Strength, which would make both trinkets still quite viable.

Edit: Nekt, I commend you on your research. Well done. I was quite sure that the rate was not 1 parry = anything like .003, as you've shown, it's closer to something like .01 like I kind of thought it was. Well done, and much respect.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

First of all, you're assuming that there is no minimum Parry Rate. However, by Nekt's own math, there is a minimum Parry Rate that comes stock of almost 2.5%. According to his math, 102 parry = about .887% parry. If you then subtract all his parry at the same rate, or rate being x=.887/102, you actually come to a base of about 2.5% parry rate even if your Parry is 0. So, assuming a rate of 100 parry = .873% increase in parry rate, you actually come to 5% parry rate at 312 Parry, not 573. At 573 parry, you would have a parry rate of 7.5%.

However, that's besides the point. Parry as it is is fairly weak. However, that doesn't mean that it needs some major rework, as all the secondaries are actually fairly weak anyways as far as any form of mitigation is concerned. This is to help tanks build towards damage more too. I don't want to personally see a big overhaul that makes Parry a huge necessity for tanks anyways because then it would no longer allow for any sort of class freedom. I'm quite happy dropping into STR trinkets as often as possible and losing my parry. It doesn't bother me. I can, however, see the necessity for some kind of buff to the secondary, but it should be something minor, which is why I have repeatedly suggested it should increase both rate and mitigation. Something along the lines of say maybe getting +1% more parry mitigation for every 20 parry you get. It isn't a big buff, and wouldn't make the secondary required, however, it would make it suck a little less that it doesn't feel like a complete waste like it does now. You would get more benefit towards your mitigation this way too when you use your VIT trinkets if necessary, but not feel like you lost a ton of mitigation if you switch into Strength, which would make both trinkets still quite viable.

So 500 parry is not even 1% damage reduction...

No, determination and critical rate actually can raise your stats significantly.

If 600ish parry was 10% damage reduction (calculated) I would agree with you. However It is not. It does not equal the other stats at all!

To even be close to the other stats, parry would have to be "TEN" times better then it is now.


I feel like 600 Critical Hit Rate is like 15-17% Critical Chance. Which is significant.

((I have no numbers to prove that, however that is what it feels like.))

[Ceodore]

So 500 parry is not even 1% damage reduction...

No, determination and critical rate actually can raise your stats significantly.

If 600ish parry was 10% damage reduction (calculated) I would agree with you. However It is not. It does not equal the other stats at all!

To even be close to the other stats, parry would have to be "TEN" times better then it is now.


I feel like 600 Critical Hit Rate is like 15-17% Critical Chance. Which is significant.

((I have no numbers to prove that, however that is what it feels like.))

Yes, currently, 500 parry isn't even 1% damage mitigation. But this isn't just about Parry itself, it's also about the different sets of trinkets in the game as well as the availability of certain stats on those trinkets. If you really need the HP pool from your VIT trinkets you'll see a lot of parry and little of much else. I'm not saying that it needs to be on par with the other secondary stats as far as power, as that would make the necessity to be in VIT trinkets far greater than the capabilities of your STR trinkets if the mitigation was equivalent to the damage increase from STR trinket secondary stats. That doesn't mean that there shouldn't be an increase to the capabilities of Parry, it just means that the increase needs to be weighed against the reasons for using the VIT set. You're looking at just the flat capabilities, I'm looking at the applications in the game. You want Parry to be equivalent to Determination, or Skill Speed, or Critical Hit Rate, but the fact is, if it was, there would be no reasons for using the STR sets at all, and it would literally pigeon hole tanks into only using Parry if the benefit was on par with those other secondary stats. So a smaller and more humble increase is the way to go instead of a massive overhaul to make the secondary something of a requirement. My suggestion still stands, increase both rate and damage mitigation.

Think about the reasons for using VIT trinkets or STR trinkets. VIT trinkets are generally for fights with heavy damage, where you're having to heal up big tank busters. So you're sinking in VIT to survive. The necessity for your big HP pool isn't because of mitigation, or because of proc chances, it's because you need the big HP to survive the big hits. But if we made Parry some big mitigation secondary that equals like 10% more mitigation per 100 parry, you'd never use your STR set because that would result in a massive loss of mitigation. Now look at the fights where it's better to use your STR sets. You're comfortable with the fight. You're not expecting any kind of massive spike in damage or a tank cruncth. This is generally dungeon fights with more casual type bosses with fewer mechanics. If parry was some massive mitigation, you wouldn't fathom dropping out of your VIT trinkets for these fights, because you'd instead be able to just laugh off every hit and healing would be an after thought. Instead, a small increase to parry's mitigation is better here too, as in these more casual fights, you're more willing to drop into STR trinkets and you won't see a gigantic loss in mitigation at the expense of an increase in damage. Parry doesn't build its necessity from its mitigation, it has its necessity because it's in your VIT trinkets, which are necessary for the massive hitting tank crunches. So a smaller benefit keeps the balance between Parry and the other secondary stats because the big benefit from these trinkets is due to the VIT.

Except the example given wasn't really "you'd have this much parry rate at this much Parry", it was "you'd have this much more parry rate than a set without a single Parry point on it".

Since the base parry rate is, AFAIK, the same for every tank at the same level, we can really only compare the parry rates from whatever we get /above and beyond/ the base parry rate, no? =)

Very true. I am not sure what the base amount of parry is without any gear on myself. Perhaps you might test this? I'm at work ATM, so I'm unable to. Maybe it is just 5%, can't be sure. But that still doesn't change much about my thoughts on Parry. It doesn't need some massive overhaul, as it shouldn't be a necessary stat for mitigation. It's tied so heavily to your VIT trinkets already, that its necessity comes from when VIT is necessary anyways. So still, a small increase over a large one is better because it still retains the balance between the STR and the VIT trinkets without breaking the status quo of either. STR would still be better for fights where you know the tactics and the big HP isn't necessary, and VIT would still be better for fights where you're expecting tank crunches or you're new to the fight. Making any big changes to Parry that buffs it dramatically would off set this balance and make VIT the necessary trinket for all situations and thus make tanks pigeon hole into VIT on all fights over Strength.

The point I am making here is that the rate of mitigation is not what is entirely important here. It's the necessity of the trinkets that use these stats when weighed against the situations that warrant their use. IF parry was some massive defensive stat that increased total overall mitigation by 10% per 100, you would never drop from VIT because that would be a permanent 10 or 20% mitigation you would lose if you did. STR trinkets would no longer be the trinket of choice on any fight anymore because of such a loss.

[Noxifer]

First of all, you're assuming that there is no minimum Parry Rate. However, by Nekt's own math, there is a minimum Parry Rate that comes stock of almost 2.5%. According to his math, 102 parry = about .887% parry. If you then subtract all his parry at the same rate, or rate being x=.887/102, you actually come to a base of about 2.5% parry rate even if your Parry is 0. So, assuming a rate of 100 parry = .873% increase in parry rate, you actually come to 5% parry rate at 312 Parry, not 573. At 573 parry, you would have a parry rate of 7.5% about

Except the example given wasn't really "you'd have this much parry rate at this much Parry", it was "you'd have this much more parry rate than a set without a single Parry point on it".

Since the base parry rate is, AFAIK, the same for every tank at the same level, we can really only compare the parry rates from whatever we get /above and beyond/ the base parry rate, no? =)