Bard and how to fix it.

[Katchoo]

I feel like out of all the DPS classes, Bard was always going to be the hardest to balance moving into 3.0

Here is my thinking. While other DPS classes have had their DPS enhanced by extending their rotations, so that their play style and role has largely remained the same, Bard has been given some thing that situationally improves their DPS. It's sort of like way the way BLM is balanced, but only slightly.

It's neither one thing nor the other. You have the option in a fight with a large amount of movement, to turn off WM. In this situation you would be doing more DPS than with WM on, BUT THIS DOES NOT MEAN YOU ARE DOING THE SAME DPS.

It helps me to visualise it.

I------------------------I if this is the usual WM damage ...

I-------------I and this is a high movement fight with it on ...

I----------------I then this is it with it off ...

Meanwhile other dos jobs are doing the same amount of movement they have always done in any given fight and are pumping out better number because their rotations are better. It's not really an option at all. It's a lesser of two evils. The only no WM move we had got nerved to hell.

I understand that they needed to improve the complexity of each job going forward but this was not the correct way.

[RiceisNice]

Bards also need a chiropractor of sorts with how much twisting we're doing with our body from the waist down :x
A lot of these old skills (including empyreal arrow itself) does not....flow elegantly with animations to say the least.

[Roxley]

I was main bard for 1 year, and i love it their movility, but now (for me at least) is incompatible with WM, anyway i'd like to leave my suggestions(choose one):

A. On WM, each proc of bloodletter reduce the recast of "Sidewinder" for 15s (the recast of bloodletter), of course that consumes the bloodletter, and if "Sidewinder" is ready, bloodletter still works like always, this suggestion is focused on the bloodletter issue, without change the core of WM and/or OP the class.

B. Simply made of Heavyshot an ability with 2.5s recast, that let us keep it the old rotation, and return our movility (the others skills keep their cast) and as "disadvantage" the heavyshot cast isn't affected for skillspeed. However this suggestion can make this skill OP, why? for example, without WM can we use HS and instantly use VB or WB like BL, even with WM, for that, maybe needs it lower their potency, and add it to empyreal arrow or sidewinder.

I choose B xD, but i think needs time to balance.

[lugiaXD]

Did you just ignore the other three letters after the word support. I didnt say straight support, i said a support DPS. They can do both, the devs themselves have stated on multiple occasions that Bards as a SUPPORT DPS. As in both of those words.
Now im not trying to be a dick here, but you and the other people in this thread are picking and choosing what you want to listen to and ignore.

while i can't speak for everyone posting in this thread i can speak for myself and i personally am not picking and choosing what i want to listen to but what i am understanding is that you really don't understand what this thread is for and exactly why people don't like the changes.

So what your mechanics were turned on its side? If your a good player you adapted, hell good players could play many different classes with differing mechanics. Your just pissy because someone isnt jumping on the BARD SUCKS bandwagon. Bard is in an excellent spot right now if you can just get over it, better then they have been DPS wise for almost all of ARR (Not counting the very start where BRD was the strongest class because they could outdps everyone while still supporting.. a state it seems that all of you want them to return to).

well then isn't someone making assumptions here, let me just spell this out for you.
it has been stated multiple times by multiple bards on multiple threads over multiple posts WE DON'T WANT TO BE TOP DPS. it was never our goal and we were perfectly fine with being as low as we were in 2.x. this entire thread was made because we wanted to improve our main class in terms of gameplay, most of the bards suggesting stuff here have already adapted very well with the WM changes but not all of us just want to be good in terms of dps most of us want to be able to enjoy playing our class.

At this point it really is a get over it or find a new class type of thing, if you are a good player it really shouldnt be that hard to adapt or change. At this point the only things you should even expect is very very minute QoL changes.

this may be one of the dumbest things i've read from you, like seriously have you just not read anything in this entire thread? it's not about getting over it it's about trying to fix something that by design is clunky and flawed. it doesn't fit the class' original playstyle at all and while i'm all for complicating the class a bit more i don't want to lose my class in the process. the class feels less like bard and more like Bowmage atm, i feel like SE should just rename us so we can at least have the tag BOM and people can understand what we're about a bit more.
you think it's only a few mechanics changed but we went from being full mobility oGCD management physical ranged support dps (and i will admit it was an easy playstyle which isn't always a good thing and yet people still managed to play it bad) to being mostly fulltime caster sometimes mobile oGCD management physical ranged support DPS.
even as an arcanist you can sacrifice a ruin in order to pop something much bigger cause you have so many other things going for you at a time (DoTs and pet) whereas we lost our AAs (your pets are basically your AAs) and while we got a potency buff all around it still means we need to be using as much as we can with as little movement as possible because that is just straight dps loss. we don't even have any instants we can rely on for giving us he time needed for popping our oGCDs in some sort of manner for the alignment we enjoyed in 2.x. our only instant is straighter shot and that's so unreliable compared to ruin 2 or bio, and if we want a reliable instant we need to cross class feint which is just a potency loss overall.

when you have on average about 12 oGCDs and one that constantly resets whenever it wants and the only reliable instant you can use to help you pop those and still keep alignments for optimum dps is a potency loss there is a flaw in design.

Right now BRD/MCH bring the most valuable support in the game for progressing, while bringing better DPS then they ever have been, and that isnt good enough for many of you. Frankly its hilarious.

for progressing yes but what about when you aren't progressing? seriously at least think through this point a bit better. regardless i agree we're in a good spot with the recent WM buffs but a lot of us still don't like the playstyle while others hate the clunkiness.

I can understand being irked at playstyle changes, but it happens. If your a good player you will adapt, because that is what good players do. If your not aparently you take it to the forums and cry your eyes out.

this isn't about being unable to play our class (though sometimes it feels like that) this is about enjoyment of a class, would you like it if they decided to make smn suddenly require a button combination and then a cast time for some of their skills (if not all)?

cause we went from instant cast and the freedom to weave perfectly to suddenly having a bloody caster mechanic and barely enough time to fit in 1 oGCD between our GCDs and Cast Times and having to worry about using repelling shot for extra dps because it can legitimately destroy a rotation or priority system.

at this point i'd rather be forced into melee range for extra dps so that we can at least not feel so clunky when using our cooldowns because at least then the playstyle still feels natural and flows.

[justinjarjar]

i seriously hate this character limit thing.

you can edit (and if you have too much already just cut then paste back in sucks but at least there is a way around). And I love this forum post working on proc fixes and animation fixes not just a mix of people being antibard and some bards saying not my play style.

[lugiaXD]

you can edit (and if you have too much already just cut then paste back in sucks but at least there is a way around). And I love this forum post working on proc fixes and animation fixes not just a mix of people being antibard and some bards saying not my play style.

that was actually just my placeholder post XD i was in fact editing it while you were replying to me :3

and i agree i like the positive vibe this thread gives over others i'm just getting annoyed at the people that are still just saying "get gud" "learn 2 play" and "get over it" because they're all fairly happy with their class changes.

[Rikkustrife]

I do not understand why people who don't play bard have against us enjoying our class.
I understand those who enjoy bard as it is now, and play it, but why do those who do not play seem to have issue with people wanting to have fun with something they pay for.
And I do play all jobs, so I don't see how that is relevant to bard not being enjoyable.
It should only need to be said so many times why we have issue with it.

Adding positionals to a couple of our attacks would be another way to balance the class, it would force us to play in melee range since moving from flank to back would take longer the farther away from the boss we are, unless there is more than one gcd between positionals, then we could still play at range. At least positionals are fun.
Or just doing more damage in melee range.

There is a number of options they could have chosen.

[ruskie]

Adding positionals to a couple of our attacks would be another way to balance the class, it would force us to play in melee range since moving from flank to back would take longer the farther away from the boss we are, unless there is more than one gcd between positionals, then we could still play at range. At least positionals are fun.
Or just doing more damage in melee range.

Nope wouldn't need to be in melee range. Just like any good melee we would be hugging the border between flank and rear and doing 2 steps left 2 steps right to get through. And we already do more damage in melee range by using repelling shot - so there is a benefit there - but I prefer running to the mob and repelling out instead of being there to be another body for healers to overly worry about when mechanics happen around there. And to be honest with all the fights in this game that already force the stack on boss's arse and dps from there it gets boring fast.

[MangoChutney]

You guys should also consider playing it as the utility dps it was designed to be. Sure it can put out damage but honestly that isn't the purpose of the class.

[Snowaeth]

You guys should also consider playing it as the utility dps it was designed to be. Sure it can put out damage but honestly that isn't the purpose of the class.

Actually the main purpose of the bard IS damage.
The only real utility bard brings are 3 songs and in some cases silence/root/kiting/range.

There is no need for tp/mp 99% of the time.
Foe's only works with magic dps and isn't something you look back at once turned on.
Silence, root, kiting and range are all super situational and almost never needed.

I would love to permanently do some utility things and being useful in many ways, but frankly enough the class doesn't have all that much utility going for it as people make it out to be.
Also with the change of our LB from heal to damage I think we have even less utility going for us than we had before, since for aoe's there was the mage LB already.