The Tale of the Dark Knight (DRK Spoilers)

[shinros]

I still think my WOL is a madman for asking Sidurgu to train Rielle. Oh another note Cilia is right on the mark as the quest journal states the WOL wanted to dispense justice as they saw fit according to the level 30 journal entry. Plus without people hiding behind the law as well we all remember 2.55 right? Oh and "Fray" did also note have strength, gaining it and using it is suffering in itself as well.

I always took that line as normal people always flock to the powerful for request and such and the more power you gain the more things people are going to demand from you and each time its going to get more dangerous, well we are a DRK and that's what are whole life is. Suffering for someone else in the name justice man our life sucks doesn't it. :P

I do wonder what is truly happening when you are attuning or doing the communion because each job quest the dark aura around "Fray" get's bigger, I do understand its a dark ritual and such hence why we can't do it in the holy see. (plus it gave an excuse to go outdoors gameplay wise) I always saw it as you gaining understanding from your dark side (very slowly I might add) and why he/she is annoyed somewhat and also what the dark side desires from you. I also think that you attuning to it so you can use the dark powers. I mean the aura at level 45 was pretty scary and ominous, what do the rest of you think the communion was?

[Allyrion]

Snip.

Like Fight Club or Rhaz Al Ghul's League of Assassins (like in the first Nolan-Batman movie), you have have a group that goes against rules and regulations while still forming their own regiment. It seems like a contradiction and maybe it is, but it's not an uncommon trope for a group like this that fight for the individual.
There's a heavy notion of personal sacrifice in those stories. You lose everything you are to be remade to serve a purpose for the greater good.
An organization around that can still allow its members what's required to enforce their justice. It doesn't need to give orders, just training and teaching.

Also, we know Sidurgu and Fray had a master so there's already at least that level of organization.

Were they the only Dark Knights?
I don't know, but I'm pretty sure their master wasn't the first. Sidurgu talks about his master and talks about the first DRK but doesn't conflate them.
If he wasn't the first, I would think there's more.
It sounds like a long-standing group of people too. It just seems hard to believe they never have some yearly meeting or something, or have a system for those they want to continue the legacy.

---------------------------------------

Also, I just want to add that I don't really interpret our time with Fray as really representative of what it means to be a DRK.
Again, this is my own interpretation.

In fact, I think the whole point of it was the confront, understand and accept the very personal turmoil within the WoL.
I think what we really got from being a DRK was learning to control that darker part of ourselves by finally accepting it, but not giving in to it.

Everything we know about the real DRKs have little to do with following your heart.
The only one who said that was Fray, and that was really about us. He would've had us leave and give up saving everyone.

Yet we know the real DRKs do not just save the people in front of them. They're all Batmans, trying to find injustice and cleanse it at the cost of their own desires.
And Sidurgu definitely didn't seem to be following his heart, he seemed dutiful. What we know of the original Fray is the same, he died doing his duty for a charge he had little tie to.
Something our 'Fray' would not have them doing in the first place.

So again, I think the climax of the Fray story was us learning to control our desires by accepting them instead of letting them well up inside.
And that was an exemplary part of what it means to be a DRK, to control your emotions and 'use the hate' as a tool.
But in their own way, emotions and selfish desires are slave master themselves. DRKs shouldn't be beholden to them either.

What we do know of the DRKs is that they fight for the greater good and expel corruption.
They sacrifice their lives and desires for a cause. I don't think they do what they want, but what they must.
'Fray' pulled us from being complete slaves to lead us to completely doing what we want, we stopped it halfway, which is where I think the DRK lies.

They sacrifice everything like their livelihood and place in the public sphere, as well as their own desires, so that they serve the greater good.
But they still have a master - the greater good.

[Raminax]

Rawr!

I personally interpreted it as our mind being opened up to Fray or our inner self/subconcious/whatever. Essentially a very fancy way of confronting our 'darker' (well, more selfish than anything) impulses (wanting to leave Eorzea and its needy citizens to itself) and suppressing them (continuing maintaining a smile, despite everything). Assuming we consider Fray or our other self as an individual, Fray essentially wanted the PC to see Fray's way and run away with them on adventures outside Eorzea, so that we could be considered free from duties we aren't all too happy to perform. Kind of like that excessively loyal friend who only thinks about you, yet still fails to consider your own feelings when searching for solutions to a dilemma.

It probably also had something to do with Fray assuming our appearance in the lvl50 DRK quest; each communion kind of 'weakened' the PCs barriers towards their undesirable self, meaning that it would've been easier for Fray to hijack your body and mind. While it likely wasn't what Fray wanted to do (as exciting as battles within the mind are, they are probably rather taxing), they ended up having it as a backup plan. It's how I understood the final quest in the beginner's DRK questline. Fray is so sick and tired of the PC keeping the mask despite repeated attempts to get the PC to just admit their own feelings and their pain, so as a last resort, Fray attempts to become the dominant personality so that they can force the PC away from everything.

So uh, tl;dr: The communion is a fancy method of confronting ones urges, masked behind edgy imagery (Blood for the Blood God! Skulls for the Skull Throne!).

[Cilia]

snip

I've neither read nor watched Fight Club, but as for Ra's al Ghul and the League of Shadows from Batman... remember, Batman became an exile and was hunted down by them because he betrayed their orders. Dark knights follow no orders but their heart's - having an organization they answer to undercuts this ideal. (Of course they still protect the innocent, but typically do so on their own terms and only because it's what they want to do. You could say they selfishly pursue selflessness, like a certain visual novel hero.)

Having a master doesn't mean there's an organization, it just means there's someone able and willing (however grudgingly) to teach would-be dark knights the art. Look at the Sith from Star Wars - after Darth Bane declared the Rule of Two, there was just a master and a student who kept their activities on the down low to avoid suspicion. It's better that way; dark knights answer to nobody, so nobody loses anything if they're killed or captured. Except the knights themselves. So while there might be other dark knights, we don't know of them, and it's better for everyone that way.

[OpticOcelot]

What made it all the more ironic for me was that the song "Animal I Have Become" by Three Days Grace came on my iPod shuffle as I was doing the Level 50 quest.

I don't know why but every time i play DRK this is all i hear lol - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWyuY47C03g

[Allyrion]

I've neither read nor watched Fight Club, but as for Ra's al Ghul and the League of Shadows from Batman... remember, Batman became an exile and was hunted down by them because he betrayed their orders. Dark knights follow no orders but their heart's - having an organization they answer to undercuts this ideal. (Of course they still protect the innocent, but typically do so on their own terms and only because it's what they want to do. You could say they selfishly pursue selflessness, like a certain visual novel hero.)

Having a master doesn't mean there's an organization, it just means there's someone able and willing (however grudgingly) to teach would-be dark knights the art. Look at the Sith from Star Wars - after Darth Bane declared the Rule of Two, there was just a master and a student who kept their activities on the down low to avoid suspicion. It's better that way; dark knights answer to nobody, so nobody loses anything if they're killed or captured. Except the knights themselves. So while there might be other dark knights, we don't know of them, and it's better for everyone that way.

I've thought of the Sith Order too, but they had the backing of rules and tradition established when the Sith hard their own Empire.
They're all about desire and personal gain, but they still were well established as an organization and order, even after splintering into smaller factions. We don't really get that.

And like I said, I don't really buy that DRKs follow their heart. "Fray" told us that, but he also told us to give up saving people completely.
He was what we made of him and though he had knowledge from the original Fray's soulstone, his words were more about us than the DRK way.
That 'Fray' would have us go away and do whatever we want.

We know the real DRK suffer themselves in Ishgard against all the danger and being outcasts to protect the weak.
Something our 'Fray' would certainly be upset about. The difference between what the WoL pre-DRK quest line and what we know of the DRK is that they can accept and use the darker part of themselves.
That, and they are willing to do whatever it takes for their cause.
But they definitely seem just as dutiful, which I would say isn't 'following their hearts'.

We see that with Sidurgu for sure. I got the strong impression he was interested in doing what he must rather than what he wants.
So on the following orders part, I don't necessarily agree. They don't associate with rules of Ishgard because people hide behind titles and power.
Any DRK organization would just have to have checks and balances to hold all accountable, then it wouldn't have any hypocrisy.

What I can agree with is that maybe they do have a Rule of Two with splintered groups, to protect themselves.
But that still means there's space to meet others. And if the Rule of Two is the way of the DRK, then the student-master aspect is still a core part of that.
Sidurgu is kind of one, but it isn't really portrayed like that. So it would make sense for us to get a formal master.

[Reinhart]

I'm pretty certain that Sid's master wasn't the first Dark Knight, and it's the Soul Crystals that make me think this, namely from Dark Knight and one of the other new jobs.

Soul of the Dark Knight: Upon the surface of this multi-aspected crystal are carved the myriad deeds of dark knights from eras past.

Soul of the Machinist: Unlike other soul crystals, the surface of this multi-aspected stone has yet to be carved with the record of past deeds.

If Dark Knight was only a couple generations old, the lore team might have used a different wording than 'myriad', which is used for every other Soul Crystal. I doubt it's history is as long as even the Dragoon's, which started roughly a thousand years ago with the start of the Dragonsong War and the first Azure Dragoon (unless it's an older tradition than that), but I could see the Dark Knight 'tradition' as it were starting a few to several centuries ago after Ishgard's religion and Houses had started to settle and grow corrupt.

[Cilia]

snip

The actual reason behind the Sith Rule of Two was, according to Darth Bane, to keep the power of the dark side within two individuals; supposedly it was more powerful that way. The subversion was just a bonus.

Anyway, in regards to Sidurgu doing his duty vs. following his heart, after the mini reenactment of the King Moggle fight in the 58 quest he fesses up and admits that he's just been using his duty to indulge in his personal vendetta - using protecting Rielle as an excuse to kill Temple Knights in revenge for them killing his family when he first came to Ishgard. Killing Temple Knights is not the same thing as protecting Rielle. He has to grow and accept his own darkness and stop using his self-imposed duty as an excuse for indulging in his personal vendetta and a way to gain more power.

In other words, moogles have to teach him that he actually cares about Rielle as a person.

In regards to Fray, I don't believe s/he ever said we should stop trying to save people. What s/he said was we should stop trying to save everyone; that is, recognize what is important and what is not, and not waste time and energy trying to help every last single person who begs for our assistance. Instead of helping every last person who goes "Hey, can you do this little favor for me?" we should cut down the root of the problem and have no qualms killing whoever gets in our way.

A certain lesson of Kreia's from KotOR II comes to mind. Still, we have to play a straight hero, so we can't just excise the root of the problem, consequences be damned, and leave Eorzea to sort out the aftermath.

[Alacran]

I could not help but see Fray as a well intentioned friend. Someone that sees the cost our heroics take on us and on our behalf and rallies against those who are far to willing to use us to save themselves.

That however is the test, by letting ourselves step to the path he offers we lose our reason for taking up the mantel of Dark Knight. He is not Fray, he is us screaming at the fact we will only ever get lip service for things that my kill us, things that we do that cost us more than the paltry gill and clap on the back we get for a job well done. If we get that much... No sooner than one crisis averted than another steps in to shake the masses, and who do they turn to? Who do the cry out for? The same battered fool that pulled them from the fire the last time. However we are Dark Knights, reward was not a factor in reasons we took up that sword and crystal. There was a need and it gave us the conviction to harness whatever we could to bring against those that hide behind station, laws and titles. To harness that, to ensure we ourselves would not be corrupted there would need to be a safeguard, a test to not only strengthen our connection to the abyss but also to temper resolve, hence Fray. When no one was there to teach us the way our own darkness in concert with the crystal formed a link to whatever was there (in this case a fresh corpse) and used it as a conduit to help us imprint the role of tester/ sound board for our own benefit.

I feel that both Fray and Sidurgu had the same role filled by there own master in there early days as Dark knights. As for weather or not there is a group/ conclave of Dark Knights, i feel it's kinda like a smaller version of the power rings (green lantern corps), instead of a large group however each new Dark Knight creates a soul cystal under the tutelage of their master, or the crystal of a slain Dark Knight will find it's way to one deserving of it. Should one fall in to unworthy hands a nearby DRK can sense it and correct the situation should it be necessary.

[Kallera]

Most of "Fray's" appearances are ambiguous, but at the very least s/he is physically there during the 50 quest. There's no way you could have gotten to Whitebrim Front and beat up the soldiers, then arrived with the healer knight; the soldiers also gasp in terror when "Fray" glares at them, and the knight gasps when "Fray" leaves Fray's body and physically manifests as your shadow.

All the other appearances are ambiguous. Take them however you wish.

I'd also love the return of our shadow in future quests primarily because it would probably be very, very personal and introspective again instead of the story ultimately be about somebody else (like literally every other storyline in this game). Can't think of a how or why our shadow would return, though.

Wait wait wait! Was that actually Fray's doing though?

In the 50 quest, they knights make mention of the fight with the gigases, basically saying that things were looking grim and they had a rough time of it. It would make sense that they would put the wounded from that battle somewhere. Though i do think you're power must have manifested something in existence for the fight, because it was clear the soldiers could see some of the actions, even if they still could not see what we see, or hear what we hear.

It's silly, but im going to play the 50 quest again tonight. And take pictures and videos. I hope this isn't the last we hear of our "selves".