Simple DRK changes, seeing too many grandiose ideas

[BlackironTarkus]

I've been reading through the various threads concerning how to 'rework' the DRK and a lot of these are very sweeping and (in some cases) very overly complex ideas that would require quite some time to re-tool and re-work. It doesn't seem necessary. DRK is a ton of fun to play right now and their depth is something I enjoy. Their kits just seem a little.. confused, and after playing one in some (not all, have yet to touch Alexander, but I hear it's not much different than EX primals) end game content, I've got some ideas that would make the DRK a little bit less of a confused mess.

With that in mind here is yet another suggestion thread, but these are simple (at least I think) and I'll give my reasonings as to why they would be nice changes and how they keep the thematics of what I think SE intended for DRK. Please let me know if you agree or disagree or if you think these smaller changes take too much away from the original intent of the class!

[BlackironTarkus]

Move 10% damage down debuff from Reprisal to non dark arts power slash combo bonus.

- As it stands, the only reason to ever use powerslash is in your opening set of moves just to establish some quick threat. If I'm on top of my game, I never touch powerslash combo after the opener. A reason to actually use the power slash combo every once in awhile would be welcome. It's in line with the whole 'anti-paladin' theme too.

Move parry reset chance from Low Kick to Reprisal. Additional when Grit is NOT on: reprisal can be used without parrying and refunds some TP.

- Chain resets on a kick feel weird when you have a giant sword. Chain resets on a kick that applies an important interruption debuff with diminishing returns feels even weirder. TP is a problem when off tanking. MTing i haven't noticed any problems with it. Chain resets on a sword to the face feel awesome. Trading resets for TP regen when you stab them also feels awesome.

[BlackironTarkus]

Grit buff: Allow us to parry magical effects.

- This would be hugely unique and in combination with the powerslash change would go a long way in making up for not having the HP of a warrior or the raw mitigation of paladin. Plus more reprisals. "but you can't slice a fireball in half!" I feel like we could. A huge great sword pulsing with anti-magical energies in the first place sounds pretty capable of it with 'dark mind' establishing we can fortify against magic in the first place.

Dark Dance: Change evasion to block chance when dark arts'd.

- most of these swords we wield are thicker than a paladin shield at some points. A large flat blade could probably bounce some attacks for a time. We also rely on parries and actually getting smacked to get MP back in some situations. Seems to fit the whole theme of "You wanna hit me? There's 5 to 8 (unless you're lala.) feet of sword in between us. Go ahead and try."

[BlackironTarkus]

And lastly: Dark Passenger with Dark arts: Slows enemies.

- How much it slows (or if slow is just a universal debuff) and how long it lasts could be completely up in the air. Yes it would still hurt blood price MP generation but it's more reliable than blinding.

Other than the magic parry, all of this stuff is aimed at making what already exists on the dark knight a more cohesive and well greased kit rather than this mishmash of random stuff it seems to have.

I have no qualms with any of the other abilities (except Living Dead... but that's a whole 'nother can of worms) and think they should stay as is.

Carve and Split MP regen seems a little low but honestly can we really gauge the power of an additional off-CD syphon strike (or mega nuke) when our mp bars are getting destroyed by over-time effects?

Let me know what you think, or if these seem super off-kilter.

(Sorry for chain posting! 1000 character limit seems weird, and I'm not sure if I'm doing something wrong)

[Hundred]

Many of your ideas are grandiose....

Reprisal is to Drk what Shield Swipe is to be to PLD's. A retaliatory conditional attack if your passive mitigation procs.

However like Shield Bash vs Brutal Swing, Drk's is off the GCD with a cooldown while PLD's is not. Additional due to many fights ignoring Pacification all together, as a utility cooldown Reprisal is generally successful at its intention (mitigating additional damage) where Shield Swipe is unfortunately not.

Again one most look at the competition.
Brutal Swing, Shield Bash, Low blows: Off the GCD 20s, On the GCD 110 TP, Off the GCD 25s with the ability to refresh.
Paladins can stun more often then enough but its expensive to do so and obviously very tp-inefficient to stun without reason.
Warriors & Drk stuns are less available but Off the GCD they can be weaved in at a moments notice. Drk has the longest cooldown but this is made up for by its refresh proc which can make it effectively a shorter cooldown then Brutal Swing while possessing all of its benefits. In the case of enemies who cannot be stunned, Brutal Swing and Low blows are extra damage where as Shield bash is ignored.

They don't want magic to be parried. If they had wanted it as such it would already be in place, as Evasion is. Additionally what math was ever done to show that Magical Parry was required? I'm almost positive none. All the ideas are just thrown up into the air to hope one sticks.
The *actual* reasion that Dark Dance does Evade is because Evasion is the defensive stat that also applies to magical damage. Rather clearly magical mitigation is not meant to be equal to physical mitigation from their design decisions. This doesn't make it useless, in fact it makes magical mitigation valuable because there is less of it. Dark Dance as a result offers mitigation to Magical & Physical where Bulwark for instance is physical only. These are minor details which should be picked up and actually considered when talking about what class needs. As magical attacks cannot be blocked, Dark Dance blocking an attack would be run counter to the Dark Knights niche in the first place.
As an evaded attack is essentially a 100% mitigated attack, Evasions mitigation % in practice is directly equivalent to its % to occur. If 6% of attacks are evaded then evasion is giving 6% mitigation. Whom can say what the actual power of Dark Dances evade is or hell even the Parry value of Dark dance. Who has done any Evasion/Parry statistics since 3.0?

Blind isn't meant to be singularly reliable, it's simply meant to aid mitigation overtime in the context of a large supply of enemies where probability can play itself out and make itself reliable. Theres a reason aoes like Flash and Dark Passenger have blind.


Its so odd to see all these ideas popping up that consider almost everything in a vaccuum and ignore how things interconnect. Back in 2.0 When Warriors were struggling there were many logical appeals with math to support the argument. Now it's generally players throwing out ideas hoping something sticks, and while someone doesn't need to do any math to make an argument, it does come off like the big picture is being ignored the vast majority of the time.

[stoxastic]

Lol, post calling for simple changes are proceeds to list a ton of changes.

You want simple change? Here's one:

Switch MRD cross-class to LNC for access to Blood for Blood, Invigorate, and Keen Flurry. Improves OT Dps, Solves TP issues, and improves defense against physical attacks.

[Hundred]

Changing Cross-classes is a large change.
Back in 2.0 People said to change WAR's pugilist to Lancer too with the exact same mentality.

It is not going to happen.

[BlackironTarkus]

Thanks for your replies!

What I meant by simple are most of the suggestions I've made already exist in the framework of the class excluding magic parry (and that would not be a good idea as per Hundred's post) and changing a blind to slow.

Right now DRK feels a little bit schizophrenic.

We like to parry and sometimes we like to get hit, so we are given means to boost miss chances against us?
A resetting stun feels awkward.
We gain attack speed when off tanking and our TP runs barren like a dried desert well.

Essentially I'm suggesting shuffling around a few key points that I feel would make the class feel less like there was no single unified lead in designing the DRK in the first place.

As per reprisal's 10 percent damage down, It's only okay. Even given perfect proc RNG there's down time on it that we can do nothing about. Given, it seems reasonable because 10% damage down is worth more than 10% str down, but there is no reason to use Powerslash more than once a fight unless you're lagging behind where you should be on threat. A lot of the good it does would be negated by the eventual tankbuster or raid wide AOE nuke that gets in during this downtime. Maybe lower the amount of damage down in exchange for allowing us to maintain it on an otherwise unused combo.

[Ipkonfig]

The only issue that needs to be fixed is TP, and even Invigorate wouldn't help with that. The DPS difference between WAR/DRK is nil, especially considering that every parse program currently doesn't parse DRK correctly and yet DRK is barely behind. The problem is at two and a half minutes you are out of TP with no way to regain it and WAR has literally unlimited TP in a single target situation. Paladin also suffers from this problem and has since release. Obviously if you have a bard you'll be fine, but not everyone is so lucky since bards are re-rolling!

[Hundred]

Obviously if you have a bard you'll be fine, but not everyone is so lucky since bards are re-rolling!

Ninja, Brd, Mech,AST can all replenish TP, and were given these functionalities for a reason. I see no real problem for PLD or DRK because in a team oriented setting where 4 classes (albiet 1 is RNG) can aid you with TP it should be expected that these abilities exist to actually be used.
Granted we're better off in some respects then a PLD when Unmend is a 150 potency attack that cost no TP, so we're still putting that out while being dry as a PLD means Sword Oath alone (Granted Sword Oath is nice).

Right now DRK feels a little bit schizophrenic.

We like to parry and sometimes we like to get hit, so we are given means to boost miss chances against us?

Yes because the 100% mitigation of a miss > the 20% mitigation of a Parry. Simultaneously the evade chance is not high enough to remove the reality that you will be hit and as such our on-hit procs (Blood Price, Low Blows, and Reprisal) remain relevant, given the nature of when you use these evasive abilities being multiple enemies.

As per reprisal's 10 percent damage down, It's only okay. Even given perfect proc RNG there's down time on it that we can do nothing about. Given, it seems reasonable because 10% damage down is worth more than 10% str down, but there is no reason to use Powerslash more than once a fight unless you're lagging behind where you should be on threat. A lot of the good it does would be negated by the eventual tankbuster or raid wide AOE nuke that gets in during this downtime. Maybe lower the amount of damage down in exchange for allowing us to maintain it on an otherwise unused combo.

Why would you compare STR down which is a damage debuff to Physical damage output to Reprisal when INT down is a damage debuff to Magical damage, Directly opposite to STR down and between the two classes highlights their focus.

Pacification is a damage debuff, however because of how many enemies are immune to it, it doesn't play out that way in most content. Reprisal is also a damage debuff but because enemies are not immune to it, it gets to do its part whenever it is activated.
One could try and compare Reprisal to a PLD's shield if looking at the big picture given Pacification is often irrelevent,but even still their focus is different. The PLD's shield is physical only, but it is always up merely waiting to proc and affects the PLD alone. Reprisal waits to proc, has a cooldown, but affects everyone who would be damaged by the boss. It's still more accurate to look at in in regards to similar abilities like Haymaker and Shield Swipe which are all damage mitigation based on a proc.