Bard and how to fix it.

[AnnietheCat]

Even if a thread is started to solely express displeasure with something in this game, the players are able to post it and the devs should listen. Even if there's nothing constructive coming from it, it still expresses the fact that people do not enjoy something that they are paying for. All threads(or at least many, I should hope) are read by the devs, and therefore work to let them know what the players wish to see in the future. This thread is meant to be much more positive, yes, but if even the other threads exist only for people to vent their frustrations, they help in a way.

[Aleph]

I have some ideas.

First major problem is WM. Get rid of it or re-work it into a song cast on a target party member. Increases physical damage dealt but drains MP. Cannons be used with other songs but can be used with BV. This will close our dps gap but by acting as support and not just have a dps stance. Give us back the cast time, and change the WM exclusive abilities to only be available whiling singing ANY song. This will encourage bards to actually play support and not sit on full MP pools for entire dungeons.

Wardens Paeon instead should act as leeches to remove a negative status effect. Easier to use and will also support busy healers during 8 man content. Has a cast time similar to leeches.

Add potency to shadowbind just to give it some use in PvE content. Can be removed for PvP. I'm not entirely sold on this.

Lastly give us back our sidewinder potency, our level 60 skill should feel like it. Increase the CD if you have to but it's a great help in solo content.

[Neyka]

The original post starts out well meaning, but then goes on to propose solutions without actually stating what the problems with bard currently are.

The problem is that there are a lot of "assumed" issues with bards, which vary depending on who you talk with, so it would be best first to identify what problems you're trying to solve.

From an effective dps standpoint, bards seem to be in a pretty good spot right now in terms of actual raids. Maybe it's because the bard I typically play with is very good at his class, or maybe because I'm a dragoon and I'm buffing his piercing damage, but he's ended up roughly on par or higher than other caster dps since the patch.

For the record, he wasn't very happy with bards before the patch, but he's pretty happy with where they are now.

Now, there may very well be quality of life improvements that could be made to bards, but the issues really need to be spelled out when proposing solutions.

[RiceisNice]

...

The issues become very apparent to me when I try to swap from MCH to BRD. Their overall gameplay feels a lot less fast paced compared to when you're not using WM due to the cast times, and it doesn't really mesh very well with river of blood (worse when you have two or more targets, which can be the case for most encounters).

Compared to MCH, they both more-or-less have the same flow of combat when WM/GB is considered, only MCH feels a bit more "natural" (for the lack of a better word) since they don't have a passive that can reset their oGCD (which inherently does not work well with cast times). Something that allows them to make use of their passive to the same extent (such as building up stacks) or allowing them to use it mid cast would go a long way.

[Aiselia]

Ok this is getting a bit tiresome now.

You came into a thread about Bards and changes we want made to Bards to make Bards flow better and brought up Black Mages.

Do you not see the problem here?

This isn't a thread about Black Mages and their changes. They have their own thread(s) for that. This is a thread about Bards. Black Mages are irrelevant to the subject of this thread.

Bard mains do not main Black Mages, so we don't have any reason to think their problems are any more important than ours.

But at least Bards aren't going into BLM threads and telling them to either suck it up and get good or to "just not use it".

[Reinha]

(Already put this post in the big bard thread because I didn't see this one, but here it is anyway.)

I have a few suggestions on how to improve bard without changing the traditional playstyle. Some of these may have been suggested before by other players. Bard shouldn't have cast times and autoattacks should remain a part of our damage because bard is a physical dps job. Also mp management during battle should be vital for bard because songs are what makes bards unique, and managing them perfectly while watching buffs, dots and procs should be the skill check. If a dps song drains mp and isn't usable with other songs, it will be an actual situational choice over support instead of something everyone has to use all the time. Besides, being able to sing two songs at once is a bit weird if you think about it.

Wanderer's Minuet #1
Cast Time: 3s
Cooldown: 2.5s
Description: Increases your damage by X%. MP is drained while singing. Effect ends upon reuse. Cannot be used with other songs.

Wanderer's Minuet #2
Cast Time: 3s
Cooldown: 2.5s
Description: Increases a party member's damage by X%. MP is drained while singing. Effect ends upon reuse. Cannot be used with other songs.

Wanderer's Minuet #3
Cast Time: 3s
Cooldown: 2.5s
Description: Increases determination of all nearby party members by X% while lowering own damage dealt by 15%. MP is drained while singing. Effect ends upon reuse. Cannot be used with other songs.

Wanderer's Minuet #4
Cast Time: 3s
Cooldown: 2.5s
Description: Increases critical hit rate of all nearby party members by X% while lowering own damage dealt by 15%. MP is drained while singing. Effect ends upon reuse. Cannot be used with other songs.

Wanderer's Minuet #5
Cast Time: 3s
Cooldown: 2.5s
Description: Increases damage dealt of all nearby party members by X% while lowering own damage dealt by 15%. MP is drained while singing. Effect ends upon reuse. Cannot be used with other songs.

Pick one of these WM versions and also replace one or two of the other new abilities (preferably WP cause it's nearly useless lol) with a defensive song (parry, dodge, magic resist or defense) and/or a utility song (threat management, enemy debuff, extra maximum hp, cooldown recovery). These kind of songs can be single target if balance requires it. This is how I envisioned bard growing from 50 to 60. What do you guys think?

[Snowaeth]

The original post starts out well meaning, but then goes on to propose solutions without actually stating what the problems with bard currently are.

The problem is that there are a lot of "assumed" issues with bards, which vary depending on who you talk with, so it would be best first to identify what problems you're trying to solve.

From an effective dps standpoint, bards seem to be in a pretty good spot right now in terms of actual raids. Maybe it's because the bard I typically play with is very good at his class, or maybe because I'm a dragoon and I'm buffing his piercing damage, but he's ended up roughly on par or higher than other caster dps since the patch.

For the record, he wasn't very happy with bards before the patch, but he's pretty happy with where they are now.

Now, there may very well be quality of life improvements that could be made to bards, but the issues really need to be spelled out when proposing solutions.

I am sorry for that, I think I got carried away by the fact that I play bard a lot and the issues become very clear to any bard doing anywhere close to a good rotation.

At this point I am not complaining about the playstyle change, I dislike that it happened, but I am trying to find solutions for actual QoL issues that came with it, not to remove it or anything.
I am also aware of the damage potential and am able to output more than decent numbers, but it's not our dps that is the real problem.

The issue is the way our rotation works now, basically one of the main mechanics of 2.0-2.55 bard Bloodletter+River of Blood interfering with the new mechanic of cast times or reverse.
Then there is the high amount of ogcd's that don't work well with casts to begin with, but the main culprit is the cast times + River of Blood proc's.

Now as I've been saying it isn't impossible to play like this and it's not a dps issue.
It's the flow of the bard that is affected by these and really needs improvement to make playing the job more enjoyable.
This affects bards of any level of skill. But not everyone cares about improvements and some might even consider a job with flaws like these a challenge, I am a fan of a job that has a good flow instead.

Also WP is considered close to being a ueless skill which is pretty disappointing for a lvl 58 skill.
And the changes we had to Rain of Death left one of our AoE skills that was already not the best option to use close to completely useless too.
Both of these things are mentioned in my changes too.
I do already give some of my thought processes behind most of the changes I suggest, but I can understand how people that don't play the job wouldn't understand why I'm suggesting them.

I will look at my suggested changes and try to add an explanation of the issues on top of it for the non bard players not understanding what we'r talking about.

[Roshidon1]

Would just like to say nice job on the thread Snowaeth. It is certainly a step in the right direction compared to the other bard thread.

As for fixes, I really like the idea of a stacking bloodletter. Also maybe an inherent barrage+EA skill since any bard worth his salt is going to be pairing those 2 up anyways; Why not cut the clicking down some and have every EA every 90 seconds to 3x damage?

[Snowaeth]

Would just like to say nice job on the thread Snowaeth. It is certainly a step in the right direction compared to the other bard thread.

As for fixes, I really like the idea of a stacking bloodletter. Also maybe an inherent barrage+EA skill since any bard worth his salt is going to be pairing those 2 up anyways; Why not cut the clicking down some and have every EA every 90 seconds to 3x damage?

Thanks,

And yeah liking that Barrage idea.
The way it is right now in a normal rotation there's 1s room for OGCD's so with Barrage + 1,5sec cast of EA + possible Bloodletter proc it can easily end up cutting into our GCD by almost a whole GCD unless SS procce'd before.

This could also be cut down somewhat by making EA instant cast like MCH Gauss Round, but I'm not sure if that's a good or bad thing as EA is a strong skill afterall.

You get Barrage before you get EA. If you do anything where you get scaled to before you get EA, obviously you won't be using Barrage with EA.

Good point, it could be made into something that's only the case while under effect of WM to fix this?

[Aiselia]

As for fixes, I really like the idea of a stacking bloodletter. Also maybe an inherent barrage+EA skill since any bard worth his salt is going to be pairing those 2 up anyways; Why not cut the clicking down some and have every EA every 90 seconds to 3x damage?

You get Barrage before you get EA. If you do anything where you get scaled to before you get EA, obviously you won't be using Barrage with EA.