Bard - they broke my job

[Aikaal]

So for theory crafting It takes about 1,5s to cast a skill.

I think you've answered your question. 1 GCD is 2.5 seconds, you have your window there.

You are also not the only one on this boat. I personally hard cast RS + Potion so I lose time and it feels weird but the damage is here.

A stat does not magically makes a certain fight better. I still fail to understand why you think A1 doesn't reflect the reality. Everybody gets more DPS on 2 targets and stat weights does not matter. You multidot on 2 targets as a Bard like a Summoner would. Like a BLM would Flare at the end of his rotation or a Dragoon would Chaos Trust both targets.

Well, the Bard on the video is form your Free Company, maybe you should ask him.

If you fail to perform like other Bards, the producer did mention Bard was working as intended and to deal with it.

I'm sorry about the question earlier but you still didn't answer it. I see no math that prove Bard is broken right now. There is no PPS (Potency per Second) You do not show with maths why Bard feels clunky. From what you told me, your skills take 1.5 seconds but triggers a 2.5 seconds GCD. It's enough for 1 OGCD. If multiple CDs happen and you have low latency, you could probably inset 2 OGCD losing minimal time. I personally don't see the problem. I'd love to have my spells be 1.5 secs and trigger a 2.5 GCD, unfortunately the BLM spam spell is a 3 seconds cast time. If I can deal with it along with my OGCD, I don't think you have the right to complain. Even if you have 11 OGCD.

If I were you, I'd try to math out the lost on OGCD before doing any claim :\ I would also question the Bard in my FC that is doing 1239 DPS in A1 what he is doing.

[KaelDrakkal]

I'd love to have my spells be 1.5 secs and trigger a 2.5 GCD, unfortunately the BLM spam spell is a 3 seconds cast time. If I can deal with it along with my OGCD, I don't think you have the right to complain. Even if you have 11 OGCD.

If I were you, I'd try to math out the lost on OGCD before doing any claim :\ I would also question the Bard in my FC that is doing 1239 DPS in A1 what he is doing.

I think that people who dont play a specific class or understand how it works need to stop commenting on said class. The amount of willful ignorance in this thread is staggering.

[Snowaeth]

I think you've answered your question. 1 GCD is 2.5 seconds, you have your window there.

You are also not the only one on this boat. I personally hard cast RS + Potion so I lose time and it feels weird but the damage is here.

A stat does not magically makes a certain fight better. I still fail to understand why you think A1 doesn't reflect the reality. Everybody gets more DPS on 2 targets and stat weights does not matter. You multidot on 2 targets as a Bard like a Summoner would. Like a BLM would Flare at the end of his rotation or a Dragoon would Chaos Trust both targets.

Well, the Bard on the video is form your Free Company, maybe you should ask him.

If you fail to perform like other Bards, the producer did mention Bard was working as intended and to deal with it.

I'm sorry about the question earlier but you still didn't answer it. I see no math that prove Bard is broken right now. There is no PPS (Potency per Second) You do not show with maths why Bard feels clunky. From what you told me, your skills take 1.5 seconds but triggers a 2.5 seconds GCD. It's enough for 1 OGCD. If multiple CDs happen and you have low latency, you could probably inset 2 OGCD losing minimal time. I personally don't see the problem. I'd love to have my spells be 1.5 secs and trigger a 2.5 GCD, unfortunately the BLM spam spell is a 3 seconds cast time. If I can deal with it along with my OGCD, I don't think you have the right to complain. Even if you have 11 OGCD.

If I were you, I'd try to math out the lost on OGCD before doing any claim :\ I would also question the Bard in my FC that is doing 1239 DPS in A1 what he is doing.

Okay you got your RS+Pot now compare it to this. These are the bard OGCD skills weaved into the normal rotation.

[Battle Voice] 300sec, [Pot] 270 sec, [RS] 120sec & [Invigorate] 120, (possibly a poison pot 108sec), [HE] & [Barrage] 90sec, [B4B] 80sec, [Sidewinder], [IR] & [Flaming Arrow] 60sec, [Blunt] & [Repelling] 30sec, [Bloodletter] 15sec [Resets 1-2 times per cooldown on average], [Empyreal Arrow] 12sec + Below 20%target hp [Misery End] 12sec.

Lets add that up That's 15 OGCD's right there. 16 if you use poison pot. Tell me again how you loose some damage from using your RS+Pot and how that compares to using 16 OGCD's.
Now lets look again at your pot and raging strikes cooldown shall we? 270sec and 120sec.
Now lets look at what happens with bard every 12 seconds? An OGCD with 1,5sec cast time and if below 20% hp Misery end on same cooldown.
Now lets look at Bloodletter, happens every 15sec guranteed averaging somewhere below two resets per cooldown so about one Bloodletter per 7,5seconds?
Flaming Arrow? Needs to cut into your GCD every 60sec.

Now lets align some skills shall we?
Straight shot needs to be kept up every 17sec. Iron Jaws needs to refresh dots every 15sec.

So every 17seconds you spend casting 2 GCD's at the end of their timer which you most of the time can not delay (by much).

So there are only 15seconds in which you could delay your GCD's as you please.

There are average-ish 2 Bloodletter procs and 1 EA to cast in that time + Misery End when target is below 20%.
Every other set of 15sec there would be Repeling (which is now only cast when SS procs) and Blunt arrow.
1/4 of the time IR and Sidewinder are up for these timeslots.
Now lets see what happens at that point already?
Every 1/4 of these 15sec windows you will have to fit in 6 OGCD's or 7 if Misery is up.
Every 1/7 of these windows you'd have 9 OGCD's to fit in that time 10 if Misery is up.
Every 1/9 of these windows you'd have to fit in 10 or 11 if misery is up and 12 if poison pot becomes a thing again.

Now a window of 15 allows you 6 OGCD windows with this cast time or if you count fitting them in after the two unmovable GCD's it's 8 OGCD spots at best.

1/9 of the time it doesn't fit by 4-6 OGCD's
1/7 of the time it doesn't fit by 3-4 OGCD's
1/4 of the time it possibly doesn't fit by 1 OGCD

Now lets look at Bloodletter again since it seems you don't know how this skill works and question me why crit scales better on bard.

Delivers an attack with a potency of 150. Instant - Recast 15sec.
Comes with this trait: River of Blood
Grants a 50% chance that critical damage over time inflicted by Venmous Bite or Windbite will reset the Bloodletter recast timer.

A bard will always keep the 2 dots going, so every dot tick there is 2x a chance for a dot to crit and 50% chance on every of those crits to reset the Bloodletter cooldown. Since it's 2 dots this averages into 100% trait activation per crit of your dots so the reset of Bloodletter happens basically as often as your critical chance on your dots.

What happens when there are two targets? The Bloodletter proc rate is doubled. The extra damage you get from your dots is already ticking on the 2nd add, but now on top of that you gain a doubled proc rate which is on a single target a huge part of the bard damage as it is. The other classes only benefit from their dots/aoe's being up on two targets where the bard actually benefits by doubling a proc chance on top of the damage already going out on the two targets.

Now back to the GCD's and OGCD's. Bloodletter is a proc based OGCD you can not account for when it procs exactly and you want to keep the chance of proccing it going. To do this you need to use it, because when it's off GCD proccing it won't give you an extra Bloodletter but just waste it. What does this mean, that if Bloodletter proc aligned with you casting any other skill the Bloodletter will take the OGCD spot most likely, If this happens during EA cast which was already cutting into GCD it will delay the GCD even more. When a GCD gets delayed your little window for OGCD's gets smaller. As you can see 1/4 of the time you already have no proper window for delays.

The bard being in my FC and me complaining has very little to do with my skill or performance. I am not asking for numbers, I am asking for gameplay improvements. You pointing out any numbers does not change the gameplay whatsoever especially when you don't actually play bard yourself and do not want to listen to the issues however badly I am at presenting them.

I perform beyond the average bard, can parse 1k on that dummy, but that doesn't change my issue whatsoever. Although you seem to not be willing to understand and bring the discussion back to dps numbers where a game is not only about dps numbers.

As a long time bard player and with having cleared A1 enough to know the feel of the fight on the new bard, I know what I mean when I point out A1 as a flaw to show bard performance check as the fight is tailored for bards.

As for your Fire 4 on 3sec cast, that's a nice argument to enforce your point, only you leave out the fact that it's below 2,5sec when using Ley Lines.
But apparently you don't mind adjusting your points for the sake of your argument yet I need to give you extended proof for my arguments even though you don't play bard whatsoever and you know better how bards should feel about the class then players that played it for a long time?
Then you throw in some bonus jabs at my performance on the bard and throw in my FC mates performance which when pointed out why it is why it is apparently isn't true because I had other complaints before that don't even have to do with the actual dps numbers.

[KaelDrakkal]

Snip

That's some hero math right there.

[RiceisNice]

That's some hero math right there.

I just want to more dakka with bloodletter (or RoD since thats a thing now) on my bard. Getting those string of procs and weaving all those oGCD was what made it fun for me. I don't understand why people are doing all this number crafting for a drastic playstyle change, especially when their concern isn't even the damage numbers to begin with.

...I'd love to have my spells be 1.5 secs and trigger a 2.5 GCD, unfortunately the BLM spam spell is a 3 seconds cast time. If I can deal with it along with my OGCD, I don't think you have the right to complain. Even if you have 11 OGCD..

I don't think BLM has any oGCD damage abilities though? The fact that someone has 11 oGCD, esp if it's their damage skill, kinda does make it important that they can weave it effectively.

[Duelle]

Let lone as posted above me, the actual problem is the way bard has to do this damage in the first place.

As for my issues with bard, it's not actually the loss of mobility. It's the implementation of how this is done. 11 OGCD's + one resetting non stop, require for a rotation that feels very clunky and destroys the flow of how bard was played before.

I'm going to quote these for emphasis, since some people haven't picked up on this, it seems. And yes, the main issue with BRD is how these changes were implemented.

[Hardpony]

11) Bard has changed a lot since the release of 3.0, but the developers say that the players have some time to get used to the new style. In the future, the content they need to be able to adapt to the fight.

NO thx, if i wish play caster i switch to SMN. Good bye bard

[pinder2009]

11) Bard has changed a lot since the release of 3.0, but the developers say that the players have some time to get used to the new style. In the future, the content they need to be able to adapt to the fight.

NO thx, if i wish play caster i switch to SMN. Good bye bard

Then do it. No one cares that you refuse to adapt.

[Beatdown]

Then do it. No one cares that you refuse to adapt.

Speak for yourself, I care.

[Aikaal]

I think that people who dont play a specific class or understand how it works need to stop commenting on said class. The amount of willful ignorance in this thread is staggering.

I think Bard is quite a simple job rotation wise. That always depends on the person.

Snip

You fail to provide any Potency per second (PPS) if your argument. If you have too many OGCD, the obvious plan of action is to take a priority list for the biggest Potency move. This is where you should work on. There are scenairo that are obvious. Bloodletter > Blunt.

I'd also believe Poison Potion is a DPS lost for you if you can't move. It is only 250 damage. This applies to Repelling Shot as well. Then again, everybody is right when they say I don't play this job so I have no idea what I'm saying but since you can't provide any theory or maths of the potency on a spreadsheet that have detailed maths you actually don't have arguments against me.

It seems the main issue why this thread is still bleeding crying is a lack of OGCD management which usually is on the player side, not the job itself and this can be worked and improved. For the love of God, there's a Bard that almost top DPS a speed kill video that is from you FC, I remind you, and dealt 1239 DPS. Claiming 2 targets is not an argument as it is part of the fight and that its apply to everybody in the party since they stacked them.

If you intend to keep crying without seeing the obvious proofs, maybe Bard is not for you and you should abandon it. This reminds me a lot of the Summoner in 2.4 that would invest more time crying on their sake then working together to maximize the job. The exception is they actually had a valid reason in 2.4 because of MP. You do not have issue outside of an OGCD management. There's also the last point and I do not wish to attack or insult anyone but... WM actually requires you to pay attention and split the average with the good Bards. This is similar to Enochian for BLM, it separates the good and average BLMs. Fortunately personal skills can be worked on.