Is Selene all that?

[fanservice]

WHM/AST incoming: "But SCH does more dps"
WHM Stone 3: 210 potency
AST: Whatever it is called: 200 potency.
Scholar broil: 170 potency.

SCHs do though. Unlike other healers, they have access to an OGCD attack for 150 potency, and if healing required is so light that you can get away with DPSing, it's likely to see use.

"But your Do-"
WHM Aero, and holy which also stuns. I ain't got that.
AST multiple DoTs, Gravity (which doesn't stun mindyou)

I am so sick of the lack of self-awareness of these people. Learn your class, it helps.

3 dots, 4 with aero.
Bane
Shadowflare

Just saying, SCH AOE being set it and forget it is kind of a big deal too being 135 potency ticks every 3 seconds to the first 4 targets (easy ~1k damage every 3 seconds to each target at decent ilvls), and 80 to the rest without needing to actively commit to chaincasting spells to do real damage.

[SovereignAegis]

SCHs do though. Unlike other healers, they have access to an OGCD attack for 150 potency, and if healing required is so light that you can get away with DPSing, it's likely to see use.



3 dots, 4 with aero.
Bane
Shadowflare

Just saying, SCH AOE being set it and forget it is kind of a big deal too being 135 potency ticks every 3 seconds to the first 4 targets, and 80 to the rest without needing to actively commit to chaincasting spells to do real damage.

The OGCD ability, as you are aware, is also tied to critical healing spells lustrate and indominability as well as our 10% damage reduction dome... As well as bane which is the ability that you state that we have to access our AOE. So I would hardly consider spamming it for DPS unless I was dealing with garbage. Arguably, if we want to do a particular moveset such as AOE with Bane we will need to deal with the consequence that the rest of our aetherflow skills will be locked behind the 2 remaining.

And yes 3 DoT's and 4 with the weaker version of aero. That is true, absolutely do not disagree. (Aero we can cross-class is 25 potency/tick, WHM updated aero is 50/tick)

But keep in mind all of those are on GCD as well. Miasma, bio... those are all on gcd and bio is the only one (aside from aero) that doesn't require cast time. So while you state that we don't have "without needing to actively commit to chaincasting spells to do real damage" I absolutely disagree.

We need to apply the DoT's, so aero (gcd), bio (gcd), miasma(gcd), bio2 (gcd). So we needed to chain spellcast there, no two ways around that period.

That'd be equivalent to if a WHM spammed stone 3 multiple times. 210 + 210 + 210 + 210 for the equal amount of input as the scholar did to set up their DoT rotation, discluding any broil spam we may add.

So in essense what I am trying to convey is that "set and forget" is an illusion, our damage is over time- this is true, but it most certainly requires a proper rotation and upkeep which is not an ignorable piece of time. "Set up and forget" is an illusion, it's like saying the WHM can ignore the 210 damage because it was "set up and forgotten" because it already took effect.


Am I saying SCH is bad off? Nope, but they are far from taking a dump on the other healing classes with damage output.

[SuzakuCMX]

No she isn't, does she help? Yes.

But is it earth shattering? Oh hell no. I have tried it against Astrologian rigorously and AST buffs are significantly more helpful.

AST buffs can generally only be applied to one person and are up to RNG. Selene is guaranteed AoE buff that is helpful to the entire party whether DPSing or not. Reliability and usability are significant.

IE: Reduce TP cost on an AOE fight.
IE: Reduce mana cost on a blackmage.

TP cost reduction relies is RNG and AoE fights are better filled by the casters even counting the TP reduction. MP mana cost reduction does almost nothing for BLM. They have to have reached a PIE threshhold where the 20% reduction in costs actually allows them to fit in another spell in a new rotation, but even then the timing on spells is very strict for keeping up Enochian and doesn't even allow for Thunder procs so it doesn't do a whole lot for BLM at 60. Arrow would do far more but is, again, limited by RNG.

*These two above add A LOT more than just 5% damage buff

I don't know where you are getting 5% damage buff from?

or 3% faster abilities than Selene does.

Ok, show some math for this?

Allowing an AoE like MCH or DRG to spam their highest TP cost abilities dramatically increases their damage output by even quadruple cause they get so many more abilities off.

That's flat out wrong. MCH's Grenado shot is useless due to how it selects targets vs. Spread Shot and costs 30 TP extra for 20 more damage making it much less efficient. Even with a 20% cost in TP, MCH will get 2-3 extra Spread Shots if he has the TP reduction the entire AoE phase and if you managed to have pulled a Spire at that phase. That also only increased the AoE damage of the MCH. Balance should be used on whoever has the highest DPS on the team because it's a %-based buff, and that's not going to be MCH if you have a SMN/BLM in the party. Selene buffs all targets without discrimination meaning A. you don't have to choose who gets the buff and B. everyone gets a piece of the pie

IE: The balanced the entire team

Balance affects mainly the DPS and to a lesser extent the tanks and the healers, but only if the healers are in CS and damaging at that point.

is more noticeable than Selene's buff.

Noticeable yes. If it's actually better or not, hard to say without math that you aren't providing.

Or put it on highest current DPS and that I feel is more noticeable.

Ok, that's great that it feels more noticeable. But whether or not it actually increases DPS by more than Selene is up-in-the-air since you aren't actually providing math to back up your claims.

This will only be more pronounced and obvious when astrologian gets the buffs that were proposed in the live letter yesterday.

If you say so bubs. We don't know what the changes are. Also you missed the entire point which is Eos vs. Selene and not Selene vs. bringing an AST. You can use Selene and still bring an AST to give you all those buffs you crave.

I am so sick of people saying Scholar is a DPS-healer because of Selene alone.

Nobody said that. Having damage buffs doesn't make you a DPS healer. Having a bunch of DoTs that don't check accuracy and the ability to AoE DoT makes you one, since prior to 3.0 WHM couldn't DPS in raids.

I strongly prefer EOS simply for her HoT which allows me to spam 170 potency broil more.

Cool, can we have math on this claim?

WHM/AST incoming: "But SCH does more dps"

Accuracy-less, AST does about the same as SCH but lacks the fall-back abilities to cleric stance and DPS safely.

*snip*

Snipped this part because see the quote after this one.

Selene's buff is ignorable on yourself as a healer in any challenging light-party situation and so "party wide" is overrated.
...
I am so sick of the lack of self-awareness of these people. Learn your class, it helps.

Irony.

She adds a MARGINAL buff for half the time. It is marginal and far from what everyone is blowing her out to be.

Delicious irony. You could heal any current content completely without your fairy. In end-game progression raids, stacking up these marginal benefits is what clears content. Not relying on RNG card buffs. So if you think a marginal buff is shit just because you personally don't see its effect you need to gain "self-awareness" and "learn your class" because it will help you play better.

[Menae]

^Wouldn't Eos let that WHM even CS themselves after they set up their HoT, and boost the party's DPS way farther than 3% haste buff?

No for two reasons:

1. In general, if I don't feel comfortable DPSing as a WHM, a 20% boost to my Regen + Whispering Dawn isn't going to magically turn me into DPS bot. If I do feel comfortable DPSing, a 20% boost to my Regen + Whispering Dawn isn't going to keep me in Cleric's any longer than I otherwise would have.

2. WHM can miss. DPS and OT likely cannot.

[fanservice]

One more thing.

No she isn't, does she help? Yes.

But is it earth shattering? Oh hell no. I have tried it against Astrologian rigorously and AST buffs are significantly more helpful.

IE: Reduce TP cost on an AOE fight.
IE: Reduce mana cost on a blackmage.
*These two above add A LOT more than just 5% damage buff or 3% faster abilities that Selene does. Allowing an AoE like MCH or DRG to spam their highest TP cost abilities dramatically increases their damage output by even quadruple cause they get so many more abilities off.
IE: The balanced the entire team, is more noticeable than Selene's buff. Or put it on highest current DPS and that I feel is more noticeable. Selene's buff is ignorable on yourself as a healer in any challenging light-party situation and so "party wide" is overrated.

AST buffs have the problem of consistency and uptime. Ideally you want expanded royal road balance/arrow in 8 mans, but:

1 - RNG
2 - Takes at least 2 draws to do that
3 - lasts 15 seconds

That is why most will say selene > AST buffs.

This will only be more pronounced and obvious when astrologian gets the buffs that were proposed in the live letter yesterday.

We'll see, because they need them.

[Menae]

WHM/AST incoming: "But SCH does more dps"
WHM Stone 3: 210 potency
AST: Whatever it is called: 200 potency.
Scholar broil: 170 potency.

"But your Do-"
WHM Aero, and holy which also stuns. I ain't got that.
AST multiple DoTs, Gravity (which doesn't stun mindyou)

I am so sick of the lack of self-awareness of these people. Learn your class, it helps.

Missed Stones/Aeros/Holies do zero potency. When's the last time you missed a Bio? When's the last time a missed Holy stunned something?

Yeah, if you put me in Vault and have me DPS fight a SCH, I'll likely win. That probably won't be the same come Alexander Savage.

[fanservice]

So in essense what I am trying to convey is that "set and forget" is an illusion, our damage is over time- this is true, but it most certainly requires a proper rotation and upkeep which is not an ignorable piece of time. "Set up and forget" is an illusion, it's like saying the WHM can ignore the 210 damage because it was "set up and forgotten" because it already took effect.

Don't take the expression too literal.

What I'm saying is the SCH can put out 1120 potency worth of damage in 4 spells to the first target, + bane to 3 targets that may miss out on a few ticks, and a bit more than half that to the rest without actual upkeep. This is before you even decide to spam broil. That's just the first round of DOTs, and they can be left to expire.

[RichardButte]

Also, we really, REALLY need to stop acting like Selene's buff is even close to being as bad as AST's random chance to give the party a 5% speed boost for 15 seconds once per minute.

You could literally double or triple the effect of AST's buffs and the RNG STILL makes it not worthwhile because of how unreliable it is.

[Nague]

you say selene buff doesnt matter because its too small, but mathematically it is better than AST cards, so what does that make the card mechanic the AST is build around?

[Phenidate]

Just an aside, since this is a Selene thread.

Take two SCH. with Selenes. One on sic, one on obey. After the first Selene automatically casts Fey Wind when combat starts, wait 30s and set your Selene to sic.
Now you have two Selenes alternating Fey Wind for more or less 100% up time (give or take a second or so due to latency).