What is Carve and Spit for?

[Giantbane]

Its just a lackluster boring abiliyt regardless...it being the last one we get just adds to it.

Eh, it's fine. Great tool to use for more MP or to use as burst damage depending on the situation. It doesn't define our class or anything, but I feel it augments our toolkit quite well.

[Timat]

Eh, it's fine. Great tool to use for more MP or to use as burst damage depending on the situation. It doesn't define our class or anything, but I feel it augments our toolkit quite well.

To each his own but while its an ok skill I feel like it should have a bit more flair.

I rarely use it outside of DA as other have said...which makes it a plain old 450 potency attack on a 1min CD.

Yes its nice...just not all that interesting.

Its not even a three hit attack some have said.

[Domira]

It would be much better if it hit three times as the skill description and animation suggests.

[Valnen]

For the very long cooldown it has, it should be hitting 3 times like the description, totaling 1350 potency with Dark Arts. It's kind of annoying that our ultimate attack doesn't even hit as hard as a Warrior's level 54 skill.

[Allyrion]

For the very long cooldown it has, it should be hitting 3 times like the description, totaling 1350 potency with Dark Arts. It's kind of annoying that our ultimate attack doesn't even hit as hard as a Warrior's level 54 skill.

Is it that weird?
Ninja 60 skill is a 3 fold attack, and it actually does hit 3 times but it's only 100 potency each hit.
Just 300 potency total, but like Carve and Split it's off the GCD.
It doesn't have anything special about it and has a 90s Recast.

I'm not saying it shouldn't be better, maybe potency wise or with some effect.
Would be nice if it was more signature, but I don't think it's a huge deal that a 60 skill is just another skill.
I'm really against rotational changes (instead of just adding on) from the last ability, like Dragon Kick was for MNK at 50.

[Calib0s]

My only real problem with Carve and Spit is that it is almost never in your best interest to use the MP restore. Using DA + CAS is a +350 potency gain - that's worth almost 3 DAs of bonus damage for Soul Eater.

Conversely, the mana restore is only worth 50% of a single DA. The only time it should ever be used for the MP restore is in a dire emergency (i.e. you don't have enough MP to turn on Grit, or you will drop Darkside if you don't) which you should have planned better for in the first place.

[Giantbane]

My only real problem with Carve and Spit is that it is almost never in your best interest to use the MP restore. Using DA + CAS is a +350 potency gain - that's worth almost 3 DAs of bonus damage for Soul Eater.

Conversely, the mana restore is only worth 50% of a single DA. The only time it should ever be used for the MP restore is in a dire emergency (i.e. you don't have enough MP to turn on Grit, or you will drop Darkside if you don't) which you should have planned better for in the first place.

AoE after blood price has ended, mana is better spent on AoE damage, so it makes more sense to use carve for mana regen here.

On hunts you usually want to maximize threat in a short period of time to make sure you get full contribution. Use carve for mana regen to spend on DA + Powerslash.

Extended fights with no down time and you're out of TP and running low (ish) on MP. It's better to restore mana to use on unmends, free unleashes & dark passenger (almost positive these are the highest damage/mana spent moves we have).

And then there's the fact that not every run is going to go perfectly and if you find yourself running low, it's better to regen via carve than to flip off Darkside for a while.

But that's why I like the ability, standard usage is going to use dark arts with it, but the secondary function of the ability is there if we need it.

[Calib0s]

1. Assuming 3+ targets, yes. This is a valid use for CAS if Dark Passenger is up. It doesn't actually refund enough MP to even give you an additional Abyssal Drain, but if you're low enough that you can't get a DA and it would give you enough MP for a Drain this is an OK use (Though not a large gain given the opportunity cost).

2. lol, hunts.

3. It's still almost certainly a net loss to use Carve and spit for MP in that situation. You should be calling for goad / TP song well before that point.

4. I mentioned this aspect in my post, but it's still a result of player error. But yes, it can marginally (potentially) help to partially make up for some mistakes. Or you could not make the mistake in the first place and get the full benefit of Carve and Spit. Two wrongs don't make a right.

The concept of the ability is fine, and it has the potential to be a useful part of the Dark Knight kit. I like it too. But let's not delude ourselves - it needs to restore more MP than it does currently to fulfil that role.

[Giantbane]

1. Assuming 3+ targets, yes. This is a valid use for CAS if Dark Passenger is up. It doesn't actually refund enough MP to even give you an additional Abyssal Drain, but if you're low enough that you can't get a DA and it would give you enough MP for a Drain this is an OK use (Though not a large gain given the opportunity cost).

Doesn't matter what it restores. Getting the full damage requires a DA, and not using the DA on carve is going to give you another drain or unleash or 2. Since we're talking about a mana limited situation after blood price has expired, you'll get more damage off of extra drains/unleashes.

3. It's still almost certainly a net loss to use Carve and spit for MP in that situation. You should be calling for goad / TP song well before that point.

I don't know exact #s but unmend is like 1/3 or 1/4 the cost of DA? For carve you're spending 1.5 DA casts worth of mana for 350 potency. For that amount of mana, you could instead be doing something like 4-6? unmend casts at 120 potency. That's worth maybe 3 dark passengers? So if for some reason you're out of TP and don't have access to Goad or TP song (pug?) then this should be your best option.

The concept of the ability is fine, and it has the potential to be a useful part of the Dark Knight kit. I like it too. But let's not delude ourselves - it needs to restore more MP than it does currently to fulfil that role.

I mean, I wouldn't say no to more MP. I'm just saying it does have some uses, even in its current form.

[Calib0s]

Doesn't matter what it restores. Getting the full damage requires a DA, and not using the DA on carve is going to give you another drain or unleash or 2. Since we're talking about a mana limited situation after blood price has expired, you'll get more damage off of extra drains/unleashes.

It absolutely does matter how much it restores. Using CAS for MP specifically WON'T give you the mana do another drain. It will get you a single unleashed, but you would need 5+ targets for it to overcome using DA + CAS.

You're also ignoring the opportunity cost in using those GCDs vs using them for a different attack.
1. Abyssal Drain is 972 MP and does 120 potency per target in damage.
2. Dark Arts is 1768 MP and adds 350 potency to Carve and Spit.
3. Carve and Spit, without Dark Arts, Does 100 potency in damage and restores 884 mana.

Let's assume that you're fighting against 3 enemies. You currently have enough mana to cast a single Abyssal Drain and still maintain Darkside, so you have 1500 MP or so. You use Carve and Spit and it gives you enough mana for a second Abyssal Drain. So you do the following:
1. You use Carve and Spit (oGCD) and do 100 potency of damage as well as gaining 884 mana.
2. You use Abyssal Drain for 120 potency per target, so 360. (1st GCD).
3. You use Abyssal Drain for 120 potency per target again, another 360 (2nd GCD).
Total: 820 potency over 5 seconds.


Same scenario with three enemies. You instead decide to go for a syphon strike to get enough mana to Dark Arts your Carve and Spit and forgo AoE entirely.
1. You use Hard Slash: 150 potency. (1st GCD)
2. You use Syphon Strike: 250 potency and + 884 mana. (2nd GCD)
3. You use DA + Carve and spit: 450 potency (Off GCD).
Total: 850 potency over 5 seconds.

So not only do you come out ahead by 30 potency, you're ALSO ahead by 176 MP.

It takes 4+ targets for Abyssal Drain to pull ahead and make using Carve and Spit for MP worthwhile. This is not a situation that comes up often in the raiding environment.

But sure, it does happen occasionally:
1. Some waves of Turn 4.
2. Turn 5 if you gather all the snakes up and kill them together.
3. For a short period of time in turn 12 before the first Bennu dies after they've resurrected, assuming you tank them all in the same spot.
4. Shiva adds in Phase 1.
5. Alexander Floor 2 on some waves.

These are the only situations in relevant content where you might use Carve and Spit for MP. Five out of 30 raid encounters + EX primals. Some of these situations don't even come up any more (You won't get 4+ Bennu unless something is seriously wrong, snakes in T5 will likely die before you have all 5 together no matter what).

I don't know exact #s but unmend is like 1/3 or 1/4 the cost of DA? For carve you're spending 1.5 DA casts worth of mana for 350 potency. For that amount of mana, you could instead be doing something like 4-6? unmend casts at 120 potency. That's worth maybe 3 dark passengers? So if for some reason you're out of TP and don't have access to Goad or TP song (pug?) then this should be your best option.

Once again, you're ignoring the opportunity cost here. This isn't a gain over waiting for your TP to restore so you can do your single target combo. TP is regenerated every 3 seconds, so Unmend would have to do more than 190 potency in order to overcome this [226 (average potency per GCD from a Delirium combo) - 36 (The amount of average combo potency lost by waiting an additional .5 seconds per attack)]. You can also be gaining MP from Siphon Strike during this time. Even if you went for multiple rotations like this and delayed Carve and Spit in order to have enough mana to use DA on it, you would come out ahead over using it to restore MP and spam Unmend / Unleashed.