Brd/Mch was fixed, will BLM be fixed?

[Alym]

As a disclaimer, I do not play BLM and do not pretend to fully understand the woes of BLM

This probably should have stopped you from posting any of that. As someone who played both casters at top levels of content in 2.0, I found SMN far easier to "faceroll" than BLM. If you mess up one thing as a SMN, who cares? You still have lots of other spells, pets, and abilities keeping your DPS up there. Fix it and keep going. One mistake as a BLM and you'd watch your DPS tank. BLM difficulty wasn't in the rotation, it was in the management of movement and stances, something SMN didn't need to worry about nearly as much. If you just did the BLM rotation without perfecting the movement and stances, you were probably a pretty terrible BLM.

All that aside, BLM is now high risk for an average reward. Perfect Enochian rotations will still put us in the middle of the pack of other perfectly executed DPS rotations. However, there is extremely high risk for that average reward. The QoL changes HaroldSaxon proposed above are what I believe is needed to fix that.

Edit: To be clear, I'm advocating for reducing the risk, not increasing the reward.

[T0rin]

This probably should have stopped you from posting any of that.

Why, because I can't have an opinion based on observation and anecdote rather than first person experience? I need to personally be top tier BLM to have an opinion worth posting?

As someone who played both casters at top levels of content in 2.0, I found SMN far easier to "faceroll" than BLM. If you mess up one thing as a SMN, who cares? You still have lots of other spells, pets, and abilities keeping your DPS up there. Fix it and keep going.

Ha. Yeah, OK. Maintaining top DPS was and is still heavily reliant on never messing up. Now more so than before. Sure, your DPS would not come to a full halt, but it was very easy to go from top dps to bottom dps simply by mis-managing a single Aetherflow stack or using Bane before Contation hit or popping Fester before Bio 1 landed, etc. Lots of little things caused big changes in DPS, and unless you were on top of your game, your output was mediocre at best.

One mistake as a BLM and you'd watch your DPS tank. BLM difficulty wasn't in the rotation, it was in the management of movement and stances, something SMN didn't need to worry about nearly as much. If you just did the BLM rotation without perfecting the movement and stances, you were probably a pretty terrible BLM.

One very specific mistake and your DPS would tank. But it was not difficult to avoid.

All that aside, BLM is now high risk for average reward. Perfect Enochian rotations will still put us in the middle of the pack of other perfectly executed DPS rotations. However, there is extremely high risk for that average reward. The QoL changes HaroldSaxon proposed above are what I believe is needed to fix that.

What do you consider average? Is Bard damage average? Is Dragoon damage average? BLM can output top tier DPS when played correctly, which is mostly a matter of knowing fights than it is the rotation, like it has always been. There is an added layer of depth now with Enochian, but it all still boils down to the same thing... knowing fights and executing properly with the understanding of how your ability timing syncs up with fight mechanics. It is high risk for high reward. Like practically every DPS class now. Dragoon fumbles a combo and their DPS will tank. SMN burns one too many Aetherflow stacks too early and Aethertrail falls off because of a phase change and DPS tanks, etc. If you want to play your class to the limit of their potential, there is always going to be high risk. But to say that being top dps is 'average reward' is a bit asinine.

Edit: To be clear, I'm advocating for reducing the risk, not increasing the reward.

And I'm advocating that neither is necessary. BLM has the potential, it is simply a matter of player skill that is holding people back.

[Alym]

Why, because I can't have an opinion based on observation and anecdote rather than first person experience? I need to personally be top tier BLM to have an opinion worth posting?

No. It's because, as you said yourself, you "do not pretend to fully understand the woes of BLM." If you don't understand them, why are you posting that they aren't real?

It is high risk for high reward. Like practically every DPS class now.

I'd hardly call it a high reward if every DPS is putting out numbers in the same 1000-1200 range. That's just a normal reward. Additionally, according to the reddit SMN theorycrafter, Hai Hai on Gilgamesh, SMN is now "low risk and high reward." You can find this on page 11 here under "Black Mage or Summoner? Revisited." It's stated at number 1 of the "I support this claim with the following reasons" part. Not every DPS class comes with the high risk that BLM does. I think BLM is probably the job with the highest risk at the moment.

But to say that being top dps is 'average reward' is a bit asinine.

BLM is not top DPS. It's average in the very literal sense. It's in the middle of DPS output for all DPS jobs.

And I'm advocating that neither is necessary. BLM has the potential, it is simply a matter of player skill that is holding people back.

Again, if you "do not pretend to fully understand the woes of BLM" then you probably shouldn't have a voice in whether or not those woes are real.

[T0rin]

No. It's because, as you said yourself, you "do not pretend to fully understand the woes of BLM." If you don't understand them, why are you posting that they aren't real?

I didn't say they aren't real, I'm saying they can be played around, evidenced by the BLM who are having good success, despite all of these supposed game breaking handicaps. Being able to adapt to a hardship and still succeed is different from being unable to adapt at all and failure being inevitable.

I'd hardly call it a high reward if every DPS is putting out numbers in the same 1000-1200 range. That's just a normal reward.

It's normal reward if you assume they are under less risk than you are. Reality is that every class is under a fairly high level of risk when playing at the top of their potential. High risk with normal reward would be playing BLM as it is now and only pulling 700 DPS on an encounter where people are putting in equivalent effort and getting 1000+. The reality is that given roughly the same amount of effort and risk, BLM is getting up in the same ranges as other classes.

Additionally, according to the reddit SMN theorycrafter, SMN is now "low risk and high reward." You can find this on page 11 here under "Black Mage or Summoner? Revisited." It's stated at number 1 of the "I support this claim with the following reasons" part. Not every DPS class comes with the high risk that BLM does. I think BLM is probably the job with the highest risk at the moment.

I read through all 70 or whatever pages of that document, and while it does serve as a good foundation of knowledge for newly minted or middling SMN, it is definitely lacking when it comes to the top 15-20% of SMN potential. Perfect execution requires juggling a lot of stuff, and is more than simply understanding the math of when to use Tri-Disaster or what not to cast during Deathwyrm Trance. Perfect execution is about knowing fights and understanding the flow and figuring out how to adapt a rotation to fit in with that flow while maintaining 100% uptime on dots and using cooldowns to burst at the proper moments. You can't really write a bunch of mathematical explanations to predict how long to hold onto a third Aetherflow charge to deal with a phase change without dropping Aethertrail stacks.

All of that aside, the guide does make some points in regards to BLM vs SMN, but they are one person's opinion, not fact, just because he wrote an extensive guide. I'm not trying to argue that BLM doesn't have a high amount of risk, I'm trying to argue that all classes have a high amount of risk... and that proper execution is what separates the good players from the average, and what allows BLM to be top tier instead of average. It may have more risk than other DPS classes, but isn't that always the case with some class? To say that BLM is in a league of their own when it comes to risk when dealing with top tier of output is just inaccurate.

BLM is not top DPS. It's average in the very literal sense. It's in the middle of DPS output for all DPS jobs.

The problem here is an assumption being made regarding potential vs realized results. You're saying that BLM has a high level of risk (they do) and when perfectly executed only has average results, aka they cannot keep up with other top tier classes like Dragoon. Except that isn't true. It may be the case that _you_ cannot execute it well enough to get top tier DPS, or you don't know any BLM who can, but there exists a large universe of players outside of your small circle that are capable of executing and achieving top tier DPS. The BLMs pulling 1000+ DPS in Ravana Extreme, for example.

Again, if "do not pretend to fully understand the woes of BLM" then you probably shouldn't have a voice in whether or not those woes are real.

Like I said, I never stated they weren't real. I'm not denying that there aren't some QoL issues. But to try to paint the picture that BLM is not a serviceable class simply because of this is untrue. It's not the same BLM as pre-3.0, but it is still a good class capable of top tier performance in the right hands. It is however a lot less tolerant for lesser skilled players than it was before. That's not necessarily bad, unless you're expecting it to be.

[Alym]

I didn't say they aren't real, I'm saying they can be played around, evidenced by the BLM who are having good success, despite all of these supposed game breaking handicaps. Being able to adapt to a hardship and still succeed is different from being unable to adapt at all and failure being inevitable.

We haven't seen a truly difficult fight yet. I try to imagine keeping Enochian up and doing acceptable DPS in a fight designed like T9. BLM would be at such a significant disadvantage compared to almost everyone else. I think this is the core of the complaints; BLMs can see this coming.

To say that BLM is in a league of their own when it comes to risk when dealing with top tier of output is just inaccurate.

And I would say that it is. You should level BLM to 60 and see for yourself.

Except that isn't true. It may be the case that _you_ cannot execute it well enough to get top tier DPS

Personal attacks are not a good way to argue. Additionally, melee DPS are top tier because of their associated high risk. Sure, BLMs are good in Ravana. That doesn't change the fact that melee DPS have a higher DPS output and BLM's is average while also carrying a very high risk. BLM and SMN are close on a dummy, but increasing BLM DPS to match their risk makes them completely outclass SMN again, which no one wants. That's why I propose cutting back on BLM risk instead with QoL changes.

Like I said, I never stated they weren't real. I'm not denying that there aren't some QoL issues.

Now we're getting somewhere. This is exactly what I stated in my first post: the QoL issues HaroldSaxon proposes are what is needed, in my opinion.

[rpm7182]

So I heard that I could come here and complain about BLM Dmg needing to be fixed. ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3Sy89m5rrQ )

As a "Fixed!" Machinist I could not agree more can we bring them down to our level.

(pss... unless you are also maining a level 60 Machinist/Bard please don't say they are fixed k thxs)

[T0rin]

This is beginning to show evidence of being unproductive. You obviously have your opinions and assumptions and will not be swayed.

We haven't seen a truly difficult fight yet. I try to imagine keeping Enochian up and doing acceptable DPS in a fight designed like T9. BLM would be at such a significant disadvantage compared to almost everyone else. I think this is the core of the complaints; BLMs can see this coming.

So now we're in the game of predicting the future and laying hypothetical over actual implementation of the class and assuming that while things may be fine now, one day they won't be? We're not longer debating reality, right? We're debating a theoretical situation you assume is going to become reality, with no changes made between now and then. Ok, this is useful.

And I would say that it is. You should level BLM to 60 and see for yourself.

I know enough highly skilled BLMs that are producing results, that play multiple DPS classes, whose word I trust, that I don't need to level BLM to 60 to see that it is feasibly capable of good results, because I've seen those parses with my own eyes. When these high skill BLMs tell me that, while different, BLM is definitely still playable and not unduly difficult, I believe them. When they put out great DPS, I trust that their skill is not in question. Perhaps this is just the right time for me to exit this particular debate, given that unless I'm going to claim to know all the nitty gritty of these issues firsthand, that having witnessed what is essentially contradictory to your claims is doing me nothing to prove a reality other than what you believe exists.

Personal attacks are not a good way to argue. Additionally, melee DPS are top tier because of their associated high risk. Sure, BLMs are good in Ravana. That doesn't change the fact that melee DPS have a higher DPS output and BLM's is average while also carrying a very high risk. BLM and SMN are close on a dummy, but increasing BLM DPS to match their risk makes them completely outclass SMN again, which no one wants. That's why I propose cutting back on BLM risk instead with QoL changes.

I didn't personally attack you, I said it _may_ be the case. I don't know exactly where your opinions are rooted, nor does it particularly matter. I was simply postulating that your realm of experience is biasing your stance, and there exists players outside of your circle that are achieving results that go against the claims you make. The mere existence of these players and their claims that the class is not as difficult to execute as they thought a couple weeks ago, tells me that this is more of a personal skill issue (not your issue, necessarily) than a balance issue. A friend of mine switched back to BLM from DRG the other day simply because the DRG rotation was more difficult for him to master, whereas BLM is old hat to him.

Now we're getting somewhere. This is exactly what I stated in my first post: the QoL issues HaroldSaxon proposes are what is needed, in my opinion.

I said that from the very beginning. I also said that if nothing changed, BLM would still be in a good place. I can't shake the feeling that BLM are all consciously or unconsciously pining for pre-HW days when things were a lot easier, and have not mentally conceded to their new reality. I doubt any of those changes will be implemented, but a month or two down the road, some BLMs will have adapted and become set apart from the average BLMs, and their risk will seem no different than any other. These very much seem like growing pains to me.

[Malevicton]

If it's a QoL fix, then by nature it's not necessary.

Whether or not you think the risk/reward ratio is on target, blm has the potential to put out viable numbers in all fights, and very competitive numbers in certain fights. It's not broken.

[Alym]

Whether or not you think the risk/reward ratio is on target, blm has the potential to put out viable numbers in all fights, and very competitive numbers in certain fights. It's not broken.

I would agree with this, but probably in a more cynical way. "Well, at least it's not broken..."

Though, I do think the Thunder spell situation was not intentional and is probably broken. But the job overall? Well, it functions.

Edit: I do consider QoL changes to be essential for everyone. But that's a semantics game and I'm not really interested in playing it.

[hallena]

So I heard that I could come here and complain about BLM Dmg needing to be fixed. ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3Sy89m5rrQ )

As a "Fixed!" Machinist I could not agree more can we bring them down to our level.

(pss... unless you are also maining a level 60 Machinist/Bard please don't say they are fixed k thxs)

Wow, a dummy parse. Who would've seen that one coming. It's not like the majority of black mage problems are related to cast canceling and movement or anything. I wish classes had their own section and only account with lvl 60 of said class could post in their specific sections.