The completely REASONABLE changes to the Dark Knight job thread

[Aurelinaus]

Snip.

You're bringing bulwark and vengence into the picture now? you suddenly forget about dark dancem shadowskin, and shadowall? And yes you can very well can choose to have it up for tank busters. You know when tank busters are coming, and reprisal has a 20 second duration, I know I parry more than at least once in a 20s period. So as long as it's not being able to have it up for a tank buster is bullcrap.

[MuzakFan]

1. 10% parry to grit...so you want something -better- than Shield Oath? Haha

It’s not. PLDs have a shield on top of parry, allowing for two types of passive defensive procs when taking physical damage. Shields block more damage than parry (about 30% with current gear) and will scale even more as better equipment is released. Parry is a flat percentage of mitigation; it will always do 20% off a hit and never more. Paladins do not rely on either parry or block RNG for optimization of their other abilities like DRK does. You’re also not considering WARs in this, either. With the changes to Defiance, Wrath stacks now give 2% boost to parry in addition to the +HP% and +healing%. That gives a max of 10% parry with 5 stacks. Wouldn’t that make Defiance better than either Shield Oath or Grit (assuming the WAR holds on to stacks and only uses them for IB burst mitigation)? You don’t seem to be concerned about that.

2. It's an off GCD attack that deals lots of damage. I don't have an issue with that if it gets a nerf to its damage to compensate.

I’m OK with them reducing the damage a bit should they also reduce the CD. However, don’t forget that PLD has a roughly equivalent attack with Shield Swipe (210 potency) that also 1) increases enmity, 2) gives a pacification debuff on non-bosses, 3) despite being on-GCD it saves them TP in long fights, and 4) can effectively be forced to proc every 30s with Sheltron. Again, though the skills work slightly differently it’s not like this would suddenly give something totally unique to DRK. Both Shield Swipe and Reprisal are not useful on pure magic mobs since you can't proc these on non-physical damage, so DRK doesn't even have an advantage in that regard.

These suggestions aren’t about making DRK better than PLD. PLD is already amazing, reliable, and consistent in either MT or OT role. I only want to get DRK on the same level as the other two tanks because of their current utility issues.

On Delirum: You don't always have a monk? There are other, similar debuffs that dont stack in the game (ninja/warrior share one for instance).

I’m wondering if you even read the OP at all at this point. I specifically compared Delirium-Dragon Kick to Storm’s Eye-Dancing Edge in the first post. Why does it matter if I don’t always have a MNK? I’m talking about the scenarios in which you DO. DRK-MNK don’t mesh well together, period. A raid group with this combo is simply suboptimal. My static has MNK/NIN as its melee DPS and that alone is enough to make me consider changing my main back to WAR because at least my OT utility will be more tuned to our group. It’s rare that SE designs a class where this type of versatility is punished, where there are many other cases of varied class design complementing each other, WAR-NIN being a prominent example.

You guys want more defenses, you know you will HAVE to lose offense for that. Right now you have incredible aoe damage, and off GCD damage (over 2K per minute!) and mobility.

This is laughable. 2000 damage per minute is only 33 DPS. What are you even talking about? And the only mobility skill we have is Plunge, which while nice is not quite as useful as you're thinking it is. It's range is only 15y (compare to Jump, Shoulder Tackle, and Shukuchi which are all 20y. Aetherial Manipulation is 25y). I've mostly found it useful as a gap closer for Bismarck EX during the tank swap and it's not like the other tank had a much harder time getting over to the other add.

[Mattiux]

I report here my suggestion of the other post:


easy fix: put out the marauder sub-class and welcome in Lancer.

-Keen fury fits better with the DrK ability.
-Invigorate can solve the TP issue ( no reason to have a TP issue when you are a MP managing class).
-Blood for Blood fits in the job story and mood, increasing the Dps of the bit needed to keep up with a War to use in OT stance.


Finally for the utility side you can make Reprisal proc based when outside of grit (something like the proc of firestarter).
In that way you can cover the lack of storm path with the Pld+ Drk party, and if you go with War+Drk you are able to cover the lack of a mitigation king like the PLD (and the Strenght down debuff).

[Falgern]

You're bringing bulwark and vengence into the picture now? you suddenly forget about dark dancem shadowskin, and shadowall? And yes you can very well can choose to have it up for tank busters. You know when tank busters are coming, and reprisal has a 20 second duration, I know I parry more than at least once in a 20s period. So as long as it's not being able to have it up for a tank buster is bullcrap.

You cannot know that you will parry once within 20 seconds. You can assume that you will, and you can increase the chance of parrying by using Dark Dance.

The reason why I brought up other tank cds is because of the ridiculous idea that a tank cd requires another tank cd to work properly. None of the other tanks have to "waste" a cd to get another cd up.

[Zetonegi]

The three big changes I'd probably make to DRK are:

1) Reprisal changed to no proc condition but potency reduced to 150 to compensate.
2) Living/Walking Dead removal condition changed from fully healed to recover at least 75% of max hp
3) Dark Arts new effect: Restores some TP(20?) upon ending Dark Arts.

Maybe they need something else as well(Enhanced Unmend or Sole Survivor changed to something more impactful in real fights) but I think this is a good start.

My biggest problem with current Reprisal is bosses attack so slowly so even using Dark Dance, its hard to get a parry proc in time for a big hit. Unless Alexander is filled with stuff using Hundred Fists, bosses just don't have the constant stream of damage needed to reliably have Reprisal for what you really want it for, tankbusters.


Healing someone a total of 75% of their max health in 10s is usually good enough to keep a tank up and it isn't going to require non-WHMs to burn half their emergency healing resources, just a quarter of them. Also it fixes the issue with benediction and not taking any more damage results in death for the DRK.

DRK is TP starved. My Dark Arts refunds a bit of TP. Maybe on DA activation instead of when you use the buff? Either way everyone's happy!

[kisada]

I made a post earlier in this thread and mentioned some ideas to other people. It seemed to be pretty well received. After thinking on it, I wanted to refine my list in terms of concrete changes that I think should be made. I should add in advance: I am not looking to have infinite MP or TP or any other resource. I would expect any of these changes to have the right tuning such that DRK isn't an invincible tank that can sustain themselves indefinitely. I really just only want the job to be as competitive as possible with PLD and WAR while also being as fun as possible. And right now, I am unfortunately having very little fun on the job. I don't think I am alone.




1. Change Scourge: Make it replenish TP with each tick of damage it deals to the enemy (every 3 seconds). Reduce the TP cost to 0 or make the ability cost some MP. This is one change that I think can significantly help out DRK's inherent TP issues as well as make it far more tactical, and as a result more enjoyable to play. Scourge is already one of the highest damage abilities in the game, but its effect is only fully realized by players who apply it intelligently and with care. Adding a TP refresh to it makes the ability even more enticing to newer players who don't fully understand the power of dots. Furthermore, it smooths out the TP curve over time and allows for the devs to better control that particular aspect. Obviously this would be limited to just one mob at a time to prevent TP restoration from multiple targets.


Personally I really like this ability as a true "fix" for this and other tank classes (PLD mainly) as up until now, they've only really had band-aids. PLD, for the longest time, has been the victim of the worst TP issues. And now that PLD has their own job-specific dots just like DRK, adding a slow TP restore to these dots would alleviate quite a few of said TP issues.


2. Change Carve and Split. Give a TP restore to C/S unbuffed, i.e. C/S will restore MP and 200 TP. Buffed version should be unchanged. I'm sure the number would need some tuning but I think it provides a very fun gameplay choice: should I replenish my resources or go for damage? It allows players to make smart, educated choices in the right circumstances and be rewarded for it, as well as helping to solve one of DRK's main issues.

3. Change Grit: Make Grit cost 0 MP. Or, reduce the cost to 5-10% MP and make it an off-global instant cooldown. Or make it free and instant the way WAR's stances are and give it an overall 10 second re-use time (my preference). Grit is just far too expensive and the MP costs are prohibitive. It prevents the player from stance swapping the way any other tank job easily can. The fact that the MP cost of stance swapping is tied into the job's main resource just makes things extremely awkward and difficult at times to juggle. Stance swapping should be completely independent of primary resource. As it stands, I feel imprisoned by my choices on DRK because I cannot effectively change stances or do the things I would normally do on any other tank without compromising my overall functionality. But that is what grit does to a player the way it works now.


4. Change Blood Weapon: make BW an auto-crit ability like Life Surge. By replacing haste with auto-crit, the overall damage boost can be the same without making the player burn out on TP faster than they have to. Personally I also would enjoy having to tactically manage my rotation such that I could auto crit my dark-arts boosted souleater every time while juggling all the other skills DRK uses. That said if 1 and 2 were implemented to a strong enough degree where TP issues were no longer a problem then BW might not even need a change.


5. Change Reprisal: Put this on its own set timer of 30 seconds and completely independent of needing to parry to activate it. Add a new function where, if the player gets hit, it reduces the cool down by "x" second(s). Keep the duration the same. Doing this will keep the job competitive in an off-tank role, as well as competitive as a main tank. Warrior has storm's path while paladin has rage of halone. Both can easily be applied as either MT or MT, but DRK really only gets to do this as a MT. With this change, DRK can do either, and it also creates enjoyable gameplay where getting hit actually becomes something you want and something fun. Furthermore it keeps the ability balanced properly so the job won't necessarily be taken over others.

6. Change Dark Dance: if you boost DD, this just doesn't work with blood price. IMO the boosted ability should be Dark Mind's 30% magic damage reduction ability, and that ability itself should be removed as a standalone one. Alternatively blood price can just be changed so that it activates when a mob misses you.

7. Change Abyssal Drain: I love the ability, but it's unwieldy as a GCD. It breaks your combo if you're in the middle of one, which is when you would use it anyway because it's only meant as an aoe drain emergency ability. Using it, MP wise, is even more unwieldy because it's extremely costly and MP inefficient. I'd almost never use it in any normal scenario since boosting it on top of the normal cost is just too much. Make this a free, instant OGCD ability that can be used every 45 or 60 seconds and let it drain for the same amount and hit for the same potency.


I think this list, whether these specific changes or ones that are similar, are pretty much what I'd need to see to feel like the job is fun again. And right now it is not. But doing away with some of the awkward and clunky gameplay as well as adding some more interesting situation dependent choices would help improve things dramatically.

[Xenosan]

Change DARKSIDE's MP degeneration from Server Ticks to added MP cost of GCD Weaponskills & Spells?

Haven't heard this one before, and it's a bold adjustment - it would change the feel of Dark Knight a lot - but IMO to a better, more predictable, and more controllable state.

Instead of DARKSIDE draining MP on ~3 second server ticks (127 MP @ lvl60) as it does, how about instead - when activating DARKSIDE - an additional 127 MP cost is added to every Global Cool Down Weaponskill and Spell?
---
No Darkside: Hard Slash cost 70 TP.

With Darkside: Hard Slash cost 70 TP & 127 MP.
---
No Darkside: Unleashed cost 795 MP

With Darkside: Unleashed cost 795 MP + 127 MP.
---
etc
---

The MP penalty would only exist for GCD Weaponskills and Spells - oGCD should be Penalty free. GCD is around 2.4-2.5 seconds, so adding the DARKSIDE degeneration to the GCD exclusive Actions would mean faster degeneration if a DRK is keeping the GCD wheel spinning - but I'd gladly make that trade for a more predictable amount of degeneration. (and if it's too much than the MP cost can be adjusted to compensate)

This would be helpful for establishing DRK's rotations - when to DARK ARTS - and when (if necessary) to drop DARKSIDE all together. It would make for more forgiveness in phase transitions in Raids when a DRK forgets to drop DARKSIDE and has their MP sucked dry for it.
--
It's a very big change - it would impact a lot of gameplay and feel of the Job, but maybe all for the better(?). I feel like - as is - there is too much instability & inconsistency with DARKSIDE's server tick based degeneration. Moving that degen to the GCD would make players feel more 'in control' of DARKSIDE and their MP management.

Thoughts? (Didn't want to create a thread - it's against my religion).

[Syzygian]

Man, I dunno about you guys, but I am having absolutely ZERO trouble playing this job, clearing content with it, or contributing to groups. Feels great.

[dragoelete]

Change DARKSIDE's MP degeneration from Server Ticks to added MP cost of GCD Weaponskills & Spells?

Haven't heard this one before, and it's a bold adjustment - it would change the feel of Dark Knight a lot - but IMO to a better, more predictable, and more controllable state.

Instead of DARKSIDE draining MP on ~3 second server ticks (127 MP @ lvl60) as it does, how about instead - when activating DARKSIDE - an additional 127 MP cost is added to every Global Cool Down Weaponskill and Spell?
---
No Darkside: Hard Slash cost 70 TP.

With Darkside: Hard Slash cost 70 TP & 127 MP.
---
No Darkside: Unleashed cost 795 MP

With Darkside: Unleashed cost 795 MP + 127 MP.
---
etc
---

The MP penalty would only exist for GCD Weaponskills and Spells - oGCD should be Penalty free. GCD is around 2.4-2.5 seconds, so adding the DARKSIDE degeneration to the GCD exclusive Actions would mean faster degeneration if a DRK is keeping the GCD wheel spinning - but I'd gladly make that trade for a more predictable amount of degeneration. (and if it's too much than the MP cost can be adjusted to compensate)

This would be helpful for establishing DRK's rotations - when to DARK ARTS - and when (if necessary) to drop DARKSIDE all together. It would make for more forgiveness in phase transitions in Raids when a DRK forgets to drop DARKSIDE and has their MP sucked dry for it.
--
It's a very big change - it would impact a lot of gameplay and feel of the Job, but maybe all for the better(?). I feel like - as is - there is too much instability & inconsistency with DARKSIDE's server tick based degeneration. Moving that degen to the GCD would make players feel more 'in control' of DARKSIDE and their MP management.

Thoughts? (Didn't want to create a thread - it's against my religion).

imo that would be a terrible idea... your makeing an already MP heavy class even more MP heavy without actually fixing anything?...

[Syzygian]

imo that would be a terrible idea... your makeing an already MP heavy class even more MP heavy without actually fixing anything?...

I agree. Are people really having that much trouble watching their MP? Or turning Darkside off when they aren't actually getting to hit anything for an extended period of time (Bloody Fuller in RavEx)? Remember DRK CAN benefit from Ballad, etc. when DS is off. There are times where this is smart. I really don't see why people are stuggling so much with this job. You have more buttons to push that you have to think about whether or not to push more often than usual. Fate worse than death D: