The argument"MCH/Bard have utility so their damage should be lower"

[Ryaz]

You guys trying to turn the game into WoW or something?

This game has 4 roles, tank, heal, damage, and support. You want to reduce it to just tank, heal, and damage?

If they buff support's DPS, they have to give damage more support abilities so they get brought along - i.e. support and damage are now one and the same thing.

Seriously, Blizzard listened to players like you. Results? Homogenized classes where everyone is nearly almost the same.

Ghostcrawler said it best,

Check Duty Finder. There is no "support" role. It's DPS. Give us support slot and I'll buy that argument.

MCH do not have the same support as Bard. The only thing we really have is MP/TP (of which the Bard's is superior due to ease of use) regen and a long cooldown, situational damage reduction ability.

[Bishop81]

Check Duty Finder. There is no "support" role. It's DPS. Give us support slot and I'll buy that argument.

MCH do not have the same support as Bard. The only thing we really have is MP/TP regen and a long cooldown, situational damage reduction ability.

Unofficially there is a support role, it's just not a dedicated role. Heck, pre-Heavensward BRD's limit break didn't even do damage.

BRD/MCH contributes to raid damage (among other things) indirectly.

Raids aren't about you, it's about the raid.

[Odowla]

Rend Mind / Dismantle are on a 90s cooldown. What other incredibly strong mitigation tool is on a 90s..

OH. VIRUS.

Dont downplay Hypercharge, either - not only is it Battle Voice, it is Trick Attack + Foes depending on the turret. mmm so good.

Lets also not forget the stun/silence..

MCH actually has more utility, if you ask me. especially hypercharge. mmm such a high skillcap ability

[Warlyx]

Unofficiallythere is a support role, it's just not a dedicated role. Heck, pre-Heavensward BRD's limit break didn't even do damage.

BRD/MCH contributes to raid damage (among other things) indirectly.

Raids aren't about you, it's about the raid.

BRD LB was healing because SE was A) Lazy (Brd was the only ranged physical dps back then) B) reminiscence of 1.0 , BRD crossclased with conjurer (raise , cure...)

Lots of jobs contribute to raid dmg :

MNK brings mantra , blunt debuff , DK
DRG piercing debuff , BL (Crit buff)
Nin brings goad , trick attack , agro transfers....
SMN : battle rez , virus , eye4eye
even WAR contribute (slashing debuff)

and i can go on and on....

but u dont see them doing poor dmg for it ....hell WoW abolished the "hybrid dps tax" because it didnt make sense , and even then was what? 5% at best...

we are talking about 20-25%~ dps tax for brd mch........just because sometimes ppl need tp / mp in the hardest content and the fun thing is that while providing support BRD/MCH have a tax attached (15% lowered dmg while singing) ....Double tax!

ADD WM to the equation (lots of brd despise the bowmage) and is no wonder ppl are salty

[Kayote]

You guys trying to turn the game into WoW or something?

No, we're trying to set BRD on an actual role so bullshit like what happened at Heavenwards release doesnt happen anymore. Either make a support role in DF and group balance or up our DPS. Situational perks to save a bad group that couldnt manage their TP/MP doesnt make a support class.

This game has 4 roles, tank, heal, damage, and support. You want to reduce it to just tank, heal, and damage?

LOL! I mean I dont usually flat out do this but this is the dumbest most ridiculous thing Ive read on these forums in a long time. No... there isnt. Screenshot it. I want to see where I can queue up as support. Show me in what current content I can sit back, buff the shit out of everyone and not get kicked for sucking. I will eat every word Ive said on the subject. Go ahead.

If they buff support's DPS, they have to give damage more support abilities so they get brought along - i.e. support and damage are now one and the same thing.

If thats true then nerf our buffs or buff the "support" of the rest of the DPS. We're not support, it does not exist.

You want to see what real support class looks like? In a game with actual support roles. Educate yourself!
http://telarapedia.gamepedia.com/Bard_abilities

Notice how its also a Bard, a support Bard none the less. Thats what a support class looks like. All kinds of buffs and even heals! Now ompare that to BRD. K thx.

BTW .. this is what DF looks like in a game with a support role.

Count them ... 4, not 3 ... 4. Thats what 4 roles look like. Now compare that to the DF in FFXIV and tell me if you spot the difference.

So no, not WoW. Though I should mention (again) WoWs Hunters are DPS, have pretty much cover every buff available in game... and noone says "OMG we need a Hunter!" On the contrary, theyve basically been hated since release. For starters no game should be balanced around requiring a certain class in the game above others. Second, seeing as we're DPS in a game with no support queue, even if our songs were or are OP ... then our SONGS are the problem. Not DPS. Thats like saying PLD DPS is too high ... lets nerf their enmity!

Seriously, Blizzard listened to players like you. Results? Homogenized classes where everyone is nearly almost the same.

Ghostcrawler said it best,

Funny you mention that. Seeing as how BRD and MCH are pretty much the most copy/pasta classes I have ever played. So much so they got gimped and "fixed" in the same nearly identical patches. Have very similar buffs, DPS stance, DoTs, weapon damage, etc. So what were you saying about homogenization? We could use a good physical ranged DPS as a matter of fact. Thats something unseen in this game for about 2 years now.

Most of you people arguing aren't even thinking through your arguments, you're just throwing everything and anything hoping something will stick.

Unbelievable. Those quoted above are just the pinnacle of this crap. Its just mind boggling how theyll just reason out anything out of thin air just to keep BRD's and now MCH's down.

[Ryaz]

Rend Mind / Dismantle are on a 90s cooldown. What other incredibly strong mitigation tool is on a 90s..

OH. VIRUS.

Dont downplay Hypercharge, either - not only is it Battle Voice, it is Trick Attack + Foes depending on the turret. mmm so good.

Lets also not forget the stun/silence..

MCH actually has more utility, if you ask me. especially hypercharge. mmm such a high skillcap ability

I'm not sure how much 5% will exactly translate to-- if it's going to be powerful or not. Haven't really had to use it yet. Only time I've really seen any effect was when I used it to mitigate Cascade a bit and we were already being heavily mitigated by the scholar at that point and would have easily survived anyway.

Hypercharge does take slightly more planning that a Bard's song. It's not exactly rocket science, you have to the right turret out, have it positioned properly (always fun using Bishop and having the tank pull the pack out of the AoE range) and want to try and line it up with your own buffs because we actually gain more damage stacking it with our other buffs than other players get from it. From what I've read, even in a heavy caster party, we're better off using Rook Hypercharge for ourselves as it provides a bigger dps gain overall for the group. Hypercharge is also 1/2 the effectiveness (5% vs 10%) of trick attack or foe's requiem (which is on as long as the BRD has MP-- Hypercharge only last 15 seconds with a long cooldown). I suppose that's the price you pay for flexibility, but here's a question-- does it stack with Trick Attack and Foe's? If not, you'd be better off just bringing a bard and ninja.

Lots of classes have stun and silence. And even heavy.

I'm not saying we should be top dps and have all the utility. But every class has abilities that help the raid, whether or not it also buffs their own dps or someone else. We're all supporting each other. I rely on a DRG to deal my strongest DPS with the 10% constant piercing buff and 15% extra crit, other classes rely on my turrets 15 seconds of vulnerability and MP/TP refresh. I just don't get why people ignore the utility of melee classes and insist that "because it's part of their rotation, it doesn't count as party support". That's a really bad argument.

[Reinha]

This game has 4 roles, tank, heal, damage, and support. You want to reduce it to just tank, heal, and damage?

I have nothing against support roles in MMOs, but if this game has a support role then the content should reflect that. I'm a casual player who has little interest in farming extremes and raids. For the content I prefer doing, the support role is not needed in it's current form. Roulettes, hunts, group fates - none of it requires support classes, however tanks and healers are still useful in all group content! In the case of roulettes it's possible for 2 support to be teamed up against each other and it results in a horribly slow experience if not failing dps checks.

You people keep saying bard and mch are still desired in raids, but do you not see anything wrong with raids being the only place where support players are needed? 11 out of 13 jobs have their place in all levels of group content but 2 jobs are only useful in the highest level of play. To fix this disparity I would like if they made at least one of the following changes:
1) fix duty finder algorithm to not pair 2 support in any content
2) change minuet so that it keeps autoattacks, doesn't give cast times, increases damage by 10%, depletes mp and is unusable with support songs so we get to choose between competitive dps and support
3) give a support song that actually increases all team members' damage because not all dungeon teams have a mage

I would pick up bard again if the mobile playstyle was viable and if they were more useful to their team in casual content (either by having more dps or providing better benefits to their party). Why have such an inflexible role that is only useful in raiding? Any one of my suggestions would stop bards being a burden where tp/mp/requiem is not needed. It's not fair some people have to wait til they are level 60 and 170 ilevel for their job to not suck... -_-

Then you have picked the wrong class ... BRD has always been hybrid support/DPS as is MCH.

If you just wanted to do damage, you should have pick a pure damage dealer with only minor support abilities.

Maybe you should have read my entire post before replying with this nonsense. Especially the parts where I said "I have nothing against support roles in MMOs" and "either by having more dps or providing better benefits to their party". Hybrid support/dps can be implemented without making them utterly useless in easier content. I have no ego issues so no, I don't need to play a pure damage dealer to have fun. I do however want to offer something useful if I'm dealing less damage than other dps. Tp/mp/requiem is a very poor way of supporting your team outside of raids. Right now Selene and astro cards are better support for 4 mans than what bards can give! SE should decide if they want to make bards support or dps but in the current state they are not good at either when it comes to casual content.

[RiceisNice]

....

Hypercharge's 5% damage increase on its uptime amounts to a 1% overall increase at the most...toward one type of damage source. It's also a dps cooldown, it's not something you want to hold off for emergency mp regen unless you want to take an additional dps hit.

Because stun/silence is often necessitated in party/raid environments. Not exclusive to machinist either.

They have a lot of utility, doesn't necessarily mean they're good. It's to the point of "jack of all, master of none", which is typically bad in a MMO setting because they're also the class with the least potential

[Bishop81]

You people keep saying bard and mch are still desired in raids, but do you not see anything wrong with raids being the only place where support players are needed?

Then you have picked the wrong class ... BRD has always been hybrid support/DPS as is MCH.

If you just wanted to do damage, you should have pick a pure damage dealer with only minor support abilities.

[RiceisNice]

Then you have picked the wrong class ... BRD has always been hybrid support/DPS as is MCH.

If you just wanted to do damage, you should have pick a pure damage dealer with only minor support abilities.

What is considered minor then? Battle litanity is ludicruiously good for dpsing, and DRG certainly does not slouch in the damage department now. Monk's dragonkick was a godsend during FCoB progression where it eased up nearly all incoming party damage, ninja has both a TP regen and a damage vulnerbility buff for their party.

Again, not to say that MCH/BRD damage is that far behind; they're still the lowest of all the classes, but whats the point of that being inherently the case when their support abilities also slap on a damage penalty for using it? Excluding times where people were dying or theres absolutely nothing going on, I have yet to use my turret to regen mana because there was a legitmate need for it.