BRD/MCH look here

[Chairman_Meow]

And why would u want 2 of any class? Also arguing single target dps is hardly worthwhile now with this new raid having 2+ targets on screen a lot of the time. T1 boss summons a clone of himself, t3 the hands, t4 the legs. Minuet multidoting and refreshing with ironjaw is Very good dps. bard has good dps vs 2+ high hp targets.

I don't see a problem with having 2 of anything else other than healers.... maybe BLMs since I don't know where they stand right now.

Like I said if you're introducing multiple targets then you're changing how things should be looked at. If you claim that Bards can hold their own in terms of DPS with the Alex raid then there shouldn't be a problem with having 2 of them in the party, right?

[Dante_V]

Well in most cases you don't need them. WHM, SCH, SMN, BLM, DRK and PLD can manage there own MP. DRG, MNK, MCH, BRD and NIN can manage there own TP using DRG's cross class utility. Hell NIN can throw out a Goad with out taking any damage penalty. Only in dire circumstances will you ever need TP/MP Regan from BRD and MCH. Even SMN can cast a raise DURRING COMBAT w/out taking a damage penalty.

You sir have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. The utilities are for raids mostly and if you don't need then your damage isnt affected. It a moot point. Most of the melee classes bottom out of tp in under 5 mins if they are played right. Beyond that the utilities you are comparing them to are apples and oranges. Comparing a single target tp regen on a long cool down to a ballad that can be played at will and affect the entire team is nonsense. It's like you are complaining just to complain. Bard clearly is not the class for you.

[Astral145]

U know a paladin runs out of tp in under 3 mins? Also nobody needs paeon like a nin needs it, they will go dry with invigorate not even nearly off cd. All the goad can achieve is delay the paeon slightly if u throw it on the paladin. . Theres no such thing as managing tp either, your either dpsing to max potential or ur not. So sure, if majority of the raid sux at dpsing or voluntairily gimps themselves, yh u wont need paeon then I guess.

I highly doubt PLD's are starving for TP at 3 mins... there are way too many phase changes. Also are players managing there utilities correctly? once you get to around 500 TP you pop invigorate. By the time you need it again it will be off CD. If you are running into TP problems then you might want to look at your stats. You only need so much ss before it becomes a loss to dps.

[Astral145]

You sir have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. The utilities are for raids mostly and if you don't need then your damage isnt affected. It a moot point. Most of the melee classes bottom out of tp in under 5 mins if they are played right. Beyond that the utilities you are comparing them to are apples and oranges. Comparing a single target tp regen on a long cool down to a ballad that can be played at will and affect the entire team is nonsense. It's like you are complaining just to complain. Bard clearly is not the class for you.

Again they are rarely used. I will gladly take a 45% reduction to damage while in support mode. But when Im not being a TP/MP battery I want to do comparable damage to BLM.

[Aiselia]

The utilities are for raids mostly and if you don't need then your damage isnt affected.

Actually, for Bards, it is. Because of them being "support" and by virtue of just having those skills, Bard weapon damage is inherently lower than every other class.

So whether or not you use them, your damage is still always negatively affected by being "balanced" around them.

[Korashy]

Again they are rarely used. I will gladly take a 45% reduction to damage while in support mode. But when Im not being a TP/MP battery I want to do comparable damage to BLM.

Sure once the BLM can switch into support mode at will. It's ridiculous how you guys want everything. While topping the DPS meter, why not heal the tanks (yourself cause you are also tanking) as well?

[Aiselia]

Sure once they BLM can switch into support mode at will. It's ridiculous how you guys want everything. While topping the DPS meter, why not heal the tanks (yourself cause you are also tanking) as well?

It's ridiculous how you say "you guys want everything" while responding to someone who said they'd gladly take the 45% reduction to damage while supporting, which means that clearly they don't want everything because they're not saying they want to do top DPS while also supporting everyone. When/if the support becomes necessary, then clearly they wouldn't be top DPS, would they, with that 45% hit?

It almost makes one think that you didn't actually read what you were replying to and are lumping all bards together as if each separate one can't have their own different wish for what they want to do.

[Korashy]

It's ridiculous how you say "you guys want everything" while responding to someone who said they'd gladly take the 45% reduction to damage while supporting, which means that clearly they don't want everything because they're not saying they want to do top DPS while also supporting everyone. When/if the support becomes necessary, then clearly they wouldn't be top DPS, would they, with that 45% hit?

It almost makes one think that you didn't actually read what you were replying to and are lumping all bards together as if each separate one can't have their own different wish for what they want to do.

Because it's too easy to switch in or out of support mode. If you had to pick at the beginning of the fight which you want to do, then sure that's fine. You can and should be able to play as a pure DPS bard, but being able to switch to utility or high damage at will is a bit much.

[Chairman_Meow]

Sure once the BLM can switch into support mode at will.?

They basically already do by being able to use Apoc and Aetherial Manip at will without cast times and no punishment for using it.

[Leonus]

@ Astral145

On a dummy (just a dummy), melee doing a PROPER rotation with proper invigorate usage will run out of tp in 4-5 min or less.

You do not manage tp, that is a fictional thing. Your either trying to do max dps, or you you aren't. If some asks why your numbers are so low and you answer with "I was managing my tp", I'm sure you will be laughed at and then kicked. That's when those "self supporting melee" you talk about lean on that BRD. To help them with their tp problems while allowing them to maintain their rotations and strict timers.

Here is the kicker, brd can help multiple jobs at the same time like that. You cannot compare battle littany, trick attack, dragon kick or disembowel to the things brd does. Gives me back tp on a large scale ( no melee can do that ) and give tp to multiple people at once to flat out maintain their numbers. Neither of those things have a long recast.

Goad - 3 minuts recast
Battle littany -3 minute recast.

Their roles are just different. They may occupy the same spot in a party but they are flat out different.

When the dps comp is in a party is smn, blm, nin, drg and the nin is running dry on tp because of reasons, he doesn't wish for another pure dps, he wishes he had a BRD.

God help the drg if the ninja has to use goad on someone else too....