BRD/MCH look here

[Aiselia]

On a dummy (just a dummy), melee doing a PROPER rotation with proper invigorate usage will run out of tp in 4-5 min or less.

And how long does it take to run out if you also simulate invulnerability phases, avoiding AOE that may stop you from attacking for a couple seconds, going after adds, etc.?

[Wavaryen]

people still argue support or not. I don't like the thought of a support dps class. *dumb imo* but whatever, To be a bard caster is a pretty heavy price to pay along with this "Support" dps tag you have. Also, I think people really devalue the buffs/debuffs other dps give. I know our songs are powerful, but they are only helpful in a very small percent of the game and yes sometimes outside it. With that being said, a class getting less dps for a small percent of the game leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

[gzuscry]

On a dummy..

Dummy doesnt throw hurdles at you unless you are using it as one. Show me a fight where you 5 min plant your self and go in autopilot skill rotation. This so touted "proper' rotation is for opener only after that you adapt your rotation from encaunter to encauter. SS doing more dot is a weak try for devs to make the stat a bit more useful, in essence it is just a leak in your TP pool. SS provided dmg does not even out the dps loss from TP starvation. I see huge differences when there is no SS on gear, yes it feels like you take more time to recast the gcd skills, but dmg is evened out and you have more tp in long run.

[Mardel]

Something seems off, no matter how much I try my opener for machinist the overall damage seems lower. Resulting in a lower wildfire damage, I believe this has something to do with the hit 2 the gauss/ricochet. Unlike bard machinist damage is compounded during the wildfire, so if we end up with a more "iron out" damage spectrum our wildfire will do less damage possibly resulting in a dps loss? Something like this?

[Leonus]

And how long does it take to run out if you also simulate invulnerability phases, avoiding AOE that may stop you from attacking for a couple seconds, going after adds, etc.?

T4 - I would run low on tp
T8 - would run low on tp

T10 I would run low on tp without a brd (before the fcob nerf )
T11 - I would run out of tp, not many breaks in that fight.
T12 - I would run low on tp before adds

Primal fights are poor assessments. No matter how you look at it.

Brds were pretty much the only job almost 100% guaranteed a spot in progression content for any group back in 2.x.

[Warlyx]

Brds were pretty much the only job almost 100% guaranteed a spot in progression content for any group back in 2.x.

war , and whm were a 100% guaranteed spot too , that -10% dmg taken and traited protect

[ckc22]

The point of the matter is, it's vital for progression. No one gives a crap about nerfed, low level content. If that was the case, then Warriors can be considered DPS too.

The other point is, the Dev team and YoshiP himself, has labeled them a support class. Since they run the game and choose how the game runs, they are the ones who decide what it is. Cry, scream and shout as much as you want to, but your view is only an opinion. It's not fact. The Devs thoughts on the class however, are fact.

The devs thoughts don't mesh with reality. You don't queue as support. I wish you did. If bard was pure support like XI it would probably be my class. But it's not and there are no legs to this "support cause yoshi changed his mind and said so" argument.

[Ryaz]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe MCH loses DPS also by switching their turret into support mode. Support turrets don't attack afaik.

They do lose DPS when using a turret. I actually used it today doing my second run through of T1 Alexander to help out one of our dps. But everyone seems to think GB is a dps loss, but I personally haven't seen that. If anything, been topping the Aggro list and one of our FC tanks wants to play MCH now after being reluctant at first due to all the doom and gloom he was seeing. And we didn't even have a DRG in the group for the extra 10% piercing damage. I believe everyone is so worried about putting out max dps on a dummy that they don't realize that real fights are much different. BRD has it worse than MCH, though. We have ways to mitigate GB, which BRD doesn't have for WM.

I do switch I up my stance depending on the fight, though. Like during the add phase of Alex T3, I drop GB because I like the extra movement to kill adds on the fly.

[Leonus]

@ Warlyx

Whm more so than war, if you couldn't get one, you would make do with 2 plds. Whm... yea you wanted one, and hopefully the other was a sch.

[Welsper59]

T4 - I would run low on tp
T8 - would run low on tp

T10 I would run low on tp without a brd (before the fcob nerf )
T11 - I would run out of tp, not many breaks in that fight.
T12 - I would run low on tp before adds

Primal fights are poor assessments. No matter how you look at it.

Brds were pretty much the only job almost 100% guaranteed a spot in progression content for any group back in 2.x.

You have to also consider that you can't exclusively base a DPS job around its usefulness of a small part of the game. Alex normal has zero need for BRD/MCH support, as does every single thing outside of possibly Savage mode. In other words, BRD and MCH support is borderline pointless for nearly the entire game at any given moment. Right now, it's that way for all content lol. It'd be better if their support (which MCH kinda has) would be useful regardless of party size (e.g. 4man) and composition. By that, I mean imagine getting into a group with nothing but BRD and MCH as DPS in content with enrage mechanics or tight phase pushing, or a BRD getting into a group with no dedicated magic DPS. You're either a worst case scenario or just outright pointless lol (again, the majority of content will not have you run into severe TP/MP problems). They're nice for "oh shit" moments but that's about the only time their place can be justified in typical content. Kinda like the old BRD LB, which I have used several times to save a DF group from wiping. Of course, at the time, BRD DPS output was high enough to be more than worth the slot it filled for any content.

It just doesn't feel good to play the job for the majority of the latter part of the game (particularly content 51+), which is where the problem lies and one yet to be addressed. Knowing full well the potential that other DPS have in this other content, you essentially feel like you're going to be carried lol (and we all know how poorly that's reflected on). What if, in the very likely chance it happens, the other DPS aren't very good or poorly equipped? It's not like you'll be able to make up their damage usually lol. Heaven forbid it being a case of a bad BRD/MCH as the other DPS. I rather they just remove the DPS aspect and go full/majority support with BRD, which is traditional to the job in any other RPG. It's better to specialize in one thing than be half-ass in both. Or at the very least, make Requiem a flat out damage bonus, regardless of physical or magic. At least that way, you won't be so reliant upon party composition to be of any actual use.