Dat Fell Cleave tho...

[Temjiu]

The Dark Knight also used a trick to get abilities he could never normally get now that Dark Arts is fixed. Lets just say that he got 5 upgraded abilities he would no longer have.

You could macro Dark Arts so it wouldn't go away, and you could burn all of your instant abilities making them do a lot more damage.

It was an exploit, a pretty big one.

Without that exploit they are probably down 200 dps, which is almost on-par if not worse then Paladin.

Which confirms my comment that the DRK could use some more tweaking. doesn't change the point of the thread...that the WAR isn't really doing too much DPS. even when they sacrifice most of their ability to tank, they are still 200-400 DPS behind good DPS classes. And I have yet to see a video with PLD damage, so I can't say where they are.

EDIT: I pondered my comment a bit, and realized that overall, I don't know what image the Dev's have for Tanks and their DPS. But then again, no one does. so where should they be? is 200-400 DPS behind DPS classes acceptable? if so, then the WAR is the threshold that tanks should reach for. If DRK is the threshold, then perhaps WAR is doing more then expected? or perhaps they are OK with WAR doing that much as they have to sacrifice their tanking in order to obtain it.

Or, perhaps the DRK really is just in need of some tweaking, as it is a new class...and has only been out for a month. And I have yet to see examples of PDL and their poor DPS. so if anyone has videos for PLD 3.0 I'd love to see em! from what PLD's are saying on the forums their DPS is great...but that could be compared to what they're used to having...who knows.

[Krocodile]

I mean, don't you feel that Fell Cleave is tremendously over powered?

I am leveling warrior right now (i am level 55 almost 56), saw some video of warriors in endgame content and DAMN... i mean... DAMN.

I don't even know why our class symbol is still blue, it should be red.

Have you played hard hitting dps classes yet? My DRG Full Thrust does nearly 3k on a crit, almost 4k with BfB, and I can use that skill MUCH, MUCH, MUCH more often than Fell Cleave. And I'm not going to even talk about BLM and their stupid-hard Fire crits.

The whole point of Deliverance is to elaborate upon their damage dealing aspect.

[Argyle_Darkheart]

Yeah... that exploit "fix" dropped us about 200 sustained dps.

Um...what?

The Dark Arts dupe allowed you to get a free DA Dark Passenger (+100 potency) every 30 seconds, and a free DA Souleater (+120 potency) every 60 seconds. So, 320 (368 with Darkside) potency every 60 seconds ideally, or about 5.33 (6.13) potency per second. Without factoring in Blood Weapon or Storm's Eye/Dancing Edge, and only using Delirium (i.e. this is a low estimate), DRK is dealing about 188.5 potency per second. Adding Dark Arts dupe would bring it to about 194.63 potency per second. Subtracting 6.13 potency per second from there is about a 3.15% loss.

How exactly does that equate to a "200 sustained dps" loss?

Parses

Using an Infuriate > Vengeance opener and ending on a Berserk triple Fell Cleave is going to inflate your numbers a bit. I've done several 10-15 minute parses on full-STR WAR and I'm averaging about 920-930 DPS (no party, no food, no potion).

The DRK parse is outdated, unfortunately, but they shouldn't have fallen much, contrary to what Nektulos claims. With Storm's Eye/Dancing Edge, they should be right there with WAR, if not beating it (TP issues aside).

[Whiston]

Um...what?

Subtracting 6.13 potency per second from there is about a 3.15% loss.

How exactly does that equate to a "200 sustained dps" loss?

I think it's obvious. Before the hot fix, he was doing approximately 7000 dps. RIP DRK.

[Kiteless]

Um...what?

The Dark Arts dupe allowed you to get a free DA Dark Passenger (+100 potency) every 30 seconds, and a free DA Souleater (+120 potency) every 60 seconds. So, 320 (368 with Darkside) potency every 60 seconds ideally, or about 5.33 (6.13) potency per second. Without factoring in Blood Weapon or Storm's Eye/Dancing Edge, and only using Delirium (i.e. this is a low estimate), DRK is dealing about 188.5 potency per second. Adding Dark Arts dupe would bring it to about 194.63 potency per second. Subtracting 6.13 potency per second from there is about a 3.15% loss.

How exactly does that equate to a "200 sustained dps" loss?



Using an Infuriate > Vengeance opener and ending on a Berserk triple Fell Cleave is going to inflate your numbers a bit. I've done several 10-15 minute parses on full-STR WAR and I'm averaging about 920-930 DPS (no party, no food, no potion).

The DRK parse is outdated, unfortunately, but they shouldn't have fallen much, contrary to what Nektulos claims. With Storm's Eye/Dancing Edge, they should be right there with WAR, if not beating it (TP issues aside).

Nektulo's claim is a bit exaggerated, obviously, he has quite the reputation for that, but you're also forgetting the issue of sustainability with that damage, as well as the cooldown on Dark Arts. Keep in mind, Double Dark Arts featured two important benefits. The obvious one is that it allowed us to front load a lot of damage really quickly, but the second one you glossed over was the matter of MP efficiency and sustainability. You need to spread that Dark Arts cast between more skills, since you can't just double it up anymore, and because your MP ends up draining much faster as well to get near the same performance (and if you're a DRK who's trying to reach peak performance, you're going to spend most of your time near the bottom of your MP bar to begin with), it's just not possible to keep that kind of potency going steady.

So because of that pesky issue of MP management, and the lesser problem of Dark Art's recast timer, DRK's damage with the removal of Double Dark Arts is actually a lot lower than your measure of potential potency per second would indicate.

Based on the parses we've seen before the hotfix, and the parses I've seen and attempted to do myself after, It looks to be a loss of around 100 DPS overall. Pre-fix, the highest I've seen was around 910 DPS, now I haven't seen anything much higher than 800.

[dragoelete]

snip

also dont forget that DS bug that causes you to lose MP when buffed debuffed or effected by a HoT or DoT tick...

[Kiteless]

also dont forget that DS bug that causes you to lose MP when buffed debuffed or effected by a HoT or DoT tick...

Sometimes, it feels better to forget...

In all seriousness though, as I noted above, I like spending most of my time at the bottom of my MP bar. That buff/debuff/tick bug has crippled me a few more times than I'd like to admit.

[Argyle_Darkheart]

So because of that pesky issue of MP management, and the lesser problem of Dark Art's recast timer, DRK's damage with the removal of Double Dark Arts is actually a lot lower than your measure of potential potency per second would indicate.

No, it isn't.

If anything, the potency per second loss is actually less than I estimated, since you can use Dark Passenger and DA Carve and Spit on cooldown now, rather than holding them for after Syphon Strike.

The MP cost of Dark Arts hasn't changed. All that has changed is the average potency of Dark Arts.

[Calib0s]

After fairly extensive parsing of both classes, TP issues aside, I am pretty confident that DRK is ahead of WAR in a comp where they get the slashing debuff, even after the Dark Arts fix. They are EXTREMELY close.

Taking TP into account, yes. WAR will surpass DRK on any fight without significant downtime, probably even with goad.

[Ditto]

No, it isn't.

If anything, the potency per second loss is actually less than I estimated, since you can use Dark Passenger and DA Carve and Spit on cooldown now, rather than holding them for after Syphon Strike.

The MP cost of Dark Arts hasn't changed. All that has changed is the average potency of Dark Arts.

I don't think you get what he's saying, at all.

Pre bug fix I could hold around 900 DPS on a dummy for a 2 minute and 20 second duration, seeing as that is exactly how long my TP lasts me. Obviously it fluctuate a bit, but that's the easy average. (Pretty sure you yourself said you've seen 910)

After the bug fix, I can only hold about 800. This is a full STR Drk with a Hive claymore.

A lot of people are saying it was a 100 DPS loss for a reason. The MP requirement for DA may have changed, but that doesn't mean MP management remained untouched. Using an ability such as passenger or c&s under the effect of a Dark Arts, along with something else like Souleater saved you a LOT of MP. It saved you an entire second Dark Arts worth.

And when you can save MP, you can Dark Arts more often.

After fairly extensive parsing of both classes, TP issues aside, I am pretty confident that DRK is ahead of WAR in a comp where they get the slashing debuff, even after the Dark Arts fix. They are EXTREMELY close.

Taking TP into account, yes. WAR will surpass DRK on any fight without significant downtime, probably even with goad.

Your War is seriously underplaying his job then.

And as far as Pld DPS goes, I know a Pld who can hold 680 with only a 154 ilvl. The way I see it, a well played Pld may out DPS a Drk as well, especially in fights where Goring Blade will tick it's full duration.