memorial service for MCH

[SovereignAegis]

After weeks of involvement with and playin with members of my FC who are MCH I can safely say that this entire thread is completely off. 1. MCH does great dmg. 2. MCH has INCREDIBLE support capacity to make the rest of the party do better dmg... which means MCH brings damage. 3. ALL of its animations are as unique and original as any of the other 2.x classes minus ninja.... i.e. nothing looks like a MCH in combat. 4. I have witnessed the burning pitch move in action... idk what kind of math you people are doing but it does a HELL OF A LOT OF DAMAGE!.

Finally back on the not of bad animations.... have any of you even seen ricochet? It is by far one of the coolest looking moves in the game.... from ANY class.

MCH rocks and is performing fantastically.

Great job SE! Players, stop complaining about things that are clearly (and by clearly I mean demonstrated with math) to not be broken or even lacking, and start complaining about things that actually need help.

Ricochet only deals 100 damage to a single target and requires you to be in gauss barrel (arguably the one ability that is inherently damaging to the class). Losing auto attacks AND becoming immobile is a massively huge DENT in the damage a MCH will do in any of these fights. For instance taking a MCH to neverreap you will get a lot more abilities off PERIOD on that final boss where it knocks you around like a ragdoll. And we can expect bosses to be like this, for instance The Vault's final boss requires a heinous amount of movement. I severely doubt in anything but the most simple boss fights (The Aery for instance) you will not be punished for that cast time/missing Auto attacks. Only time I ever use Gauss is when I am in an AOE-farm situation, in which case it is clearly better. Anything else it is a miserable decision.

Overcharge either does one of the following: doubles MP/TP output (to 60/tick from 30/tick), increases magic (ONLY MAGIC) damage received by target by 5% for 15 seconds, increase physical (ONLY PHYSICAL) damage taken by 5% for 15 seconds. On a 2 minute cooldown timer with arguably the most valuable resource that the MCH brings (MP/TP) utilizing overcharge in a raid that counts to increase damage by those marginal amounts is a heinous joke. Even Bard can separate their double-MP/TP song separate from their MUCH MORE (DOUBLE) potency damage increase foes requiem. Hell they can even make foes double if they are burning a boss/dungeon. That makes it a 20% damage increase, not 5%.

Rendmind / Dismantle: 5%. FIVE PERCENT damage decrease from a single target on a shared cooldown timer for 10seconds duration and 90s SHARED cooldown. Virus from SMN/SCH, monk's intelligence debuff that is spammable, etc makes this look horrendous. HORRENDOUS.

Also if it does a hell of a lot of damage then that's wonderful... just means EVERYTHING deals "A LOT OF DAMAGE". Warriors deal more, white mages deal more, scholars deal more... hell AST deals more because their potency is the same as WHM that are actively outdpsing MCH in the field. And the "utility" that a MCH brings PALES in comparison to the utility a whitemage brings. I see a lot of raid groups starting to argue they'll take another healer who can off-heal and focus on dpsing over a brd/mch.


So the parody now is that anything a MCH can do a BRD can do better. They restore mp/tp just as well as a MCH and can offer pre-cast cleanse of conditions, damage increase on demand, etc. There is not a single unique thing a MCH offers.

[RiceisNice]

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I'm pretty sure that comment was sarcasming with his wording and the partenthesis.

Also, ricochet is 100+300 potency. The 300 is split evenly between targets (which might I add, is pretty shitty esp for a 1 minute CD ability). On a single target it'll hit for 400 total.

[Ryaz]

@SovereignAegis: Acutally, most testing shows that GB gives better damage. Yea, you may lose a little while having to move, but it evens out pretty well. It's not a giant dent. And Ricochet actually hits for 400 potency is there's a single target-- does one hit at 100 potency and one at 300. I've had crits hit well over 5k with it. I use GB all the time-- even on the first boss of Fractal, who's an AoE machine. It's all about slide casting. And once proc, it's instant cast. The only time I'm casting is for Hot Shot, Lead Shot or Split Shot. I still think we shouldn't lose auto-attacks as GB should be a damage increase instead of just evening out, but it's not bad when you get used to it.

Hypercharge also double the potency of the turrets attacks.

[RiceisNice]

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The problem is that the damage increase is incredibly small in ideal situations. I've done it a couple of times and at best the damage difference was around 3% (and I had overall more crits in favor of GB) That means blanks on cooldown. Slide casting won't help with actually dodging most boss AoEs; you're just moving for the sake of moving.

Once you're unable to use blanks on cooldown or missing a GCD from moving, I'd wager thats a damage loss right there. It's busting your ass for little payoff.

...

You're 150 dps behind for really no good reason though. And while I do have the benefit of going into 3.0 with a static from FCoB, it doesn't change the fact that I'm naturally doing less damage than other dps for no reason, and people will give me a hard time for it (because I needed someone within a farn party to vouch them to open up an MCH slot >_>). Not to mention that Ravana parses are the worse thing to look at for raw numbers because of liberation phases and people throwing out (un)merged parses.

MCH isn't low enough that it shouldn't be excluded, but I wouldn't say that people are exaggerating when MCH numbers are lower than it should be relatively.

[Sevyn]

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Agreed, right now it does look like we do less for no good reason because none of our utility is really necessary for that fight. If our "utility" is still useless in Alexander normal/savage AND we still do quite a bit less then they better buff our job. Until then though we shouldn't overreact and see what happens.

[RiceisNice]

Agreed, right now it does look like we do less for no good reason because none of our utility is really necessary for that fight. If our "utility" is still useless in Alexander normal/savage AND we still do quite a bit less then they better buff our job. Until then though we shouldn't overreact and see what happens.

The other end of the spectrum is that MCH's tp/mp regen is arguably worse than bard's when it comes to emergencies, on top of being on the lower end of the damage spectrum compared to a bard. Hypercharge is one of our DPS cooldowns; if we hold it off for emergency regen like battle voice, its a damage loss for every second that we do hold it. On the other hand, machinist is good at keeping people at optimal levels when there's sufficent downtime, but how much that'll help is varied.

In the end, I'd still wish they'd at least address whats wrong with GB and the very minuscule payoff (if there is one) we get out of it

[Edellis]

You're 150 dps behind for really no good reason though.

If you've got any casters (you do) in your party (or a Ninja, or a WHM who can DPS, or any healer who knows how to dot ), and you give them all access to a 5~10% or 10~20% damage buff for free, is that really a "for nothing" situation?

I realize this is more a bard thing, but i don't get why people always exclude that

Of course this doesn't apply (as in they dont do support DPS) to ninja's trick attack + goad which is arguable more powerful because?

Or summoners res and super virus allowing your healers to DPS more?

Or crit buff of Dragoon and Piercing up?

Because DPS-oriented skills for a DPS-oriented class that provide more DPS to the raid at no cost to their own DPS is not a support skill, it's a DPS skill. And it doesn't make them a support class. It makes them a DPS that does DPS. DPS DPS and more DPS.

Bard does not and never has functioned like this, 4/5 of your job skills from lv 30-50 not only added NOTHING to your own DPS, but reduced it while active. It's primary and only effective use is boosting your teammates.

Hell until 3.0, Rain of Death was even a support skill. It was ONE HUNDRED percent useless to use for DPS purposes EVER unless you had someone under the accuracy cap. And if you used this for QN procs, you were AoEing wrong, because that sucked. It was intentionally weaker than QN and WV because of this.

This is a terrible argument, people should stop using it because it sounds silly.

But maybe i'm wrong, hey look the ninja Goad'd me inbetween his barrage of weaponskills with 0 detriment to his DPS at all GUESS HES SUPPORT NOW

[RiceisNice]

Well the person I was replying to was a machinist, so no foe requiem. And 5% honestly is not that much. Considering the up time, that amounts to maybe 1% damage increase. Using bishop to amplify magic damage by 5% is at the cost of rook turret's potency; It'd be better for you to use rook anyway to amplify your own damage if its aligning with your cooldowns (which is only every other time) Not to mention ninja has a 10% one that's applied to both damage types, has a lower cooldown and does more damage than us anyway.

I'll agree that bards are at a better standing than machinist as far as what they can bring to the table is concerned, though they still have their own gameplay problems with how WM affects it (bloodletter resets and straighter shot procs for one)

[Stormgale]

If you've got any casters (you do) in your party (or a Ninja, or a WHM who can DPS, or any healer who knows how to dot ), and you give them all access to a 5~10% or 10~20% damage buff for free, is that really a "for nothing" situation?

I realize this is more a bard thing, but i don't get why people always exclude that

Of course this doesn't apply (as in they dont do support DPS) to ninja's trick attack + goad which is arguable more powerful because?

Or summoners res and super virus allowing your healers to DPS more?

Or crit buff of Dragoon and Piercing up?