Bards viability now?

[Garan]

Why are people thinking that a SUPPORT class is supposed to be doing damage on par with a DPS class.


BRD/MCH are SUPPORT classes.

WRONG. BRD is a DPS class. There are no SUPPORT classes in FFXIV. TANK, HEALER, DPS.

[Lillia]

snip

I see, well it makes sense but we also need to consider what they think is a large increase. They probably don't want bard over other DPS but it doesn't mean that bard will remain under tanks either. One thing I will say is that since 2.0 bard has never ever been intended for top dps anyways so I'm not entirely surprised with yoshi's response.

When raids came in bards were still effectively one of the most needed jobs because of their necessity in the supporter field. I don't think bard will ever reach the ranks of other dps's as long as it's a utility playstyle job so hopefully SE just adjust them vs tank dps along with WM tweaks.

machinist is a job I feel should be above bard though, I'd personally prefer instead of them to have a similar effect of foes on their machine to replace tp or mp and maybe something to replace the leftover one too while being slightly stronger than bard in dps. bard would then still be useful as a utility member but not the only mobile class anymore either. It feels like as long as machinist has tp/mp abilities along with some bard similarities, SE will need to be careful with how it grows so it never over balances bard entirely though it may just be me. :/

[Waeksyn]

It's very easy to notice the mp difference between Ballad and Foe/Paeon, so yes, Ballad does restore your mp as well. Paeon also grants you TP back. You've been a Bard on these forums for awhile, I'm honestly surprised you didn't know this. @_@

Ballad does affect the singer's MP (don't need to be complicated - just read the description on the skill) but it's really moot, because all that means is that the ballad lasts longer as it consumes your MP pool. Paeon does restore your TP but you lose dmg while it's up. It can help extend your AOE time.

On a positive note, one thing that WM does do is improve our AOE. Spamming quick nock with the longer casting time allows for more TP regeneration, while the +20% just covers the dmg lost from the slower cast time.

[Garan]

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This is all fine and good, except the damage penalty is already BUILT IN to the support skills. I can see no reason for bard to suffer DPS losses when they aren't supporting the party with their songs. When not singing, they are exactly the same as every other DPS class, plus a bit of mobility. The mobility concern is a valid reason to have slightly lower DPS. We can dodge and DPS at the same time. Except WM changes this.

I have no problem with having a bit lower DPS(But staying relevant) because I have more mobility. I am not OK with having the same mobility as a BLM but doing far inferior damage.

[Sessurea]

Guys, Brd is dead and MCH is a still birth. They can't even put up numbers as good as a WAR. When your DPS class is out damaged by the off tank, there is something wrong. SE's official response indicates that they may make some adjustments such as make WM quicker to apply. Great, now we will stance dance, putting WM on only to use abilities that require it only to take it off immediately thereafter. However, they also say that they will NOT make changes to increase the DPS of brd.

It's dead.

And who do u think will give tp to melee when they zero out ( or that tp drinking maniac warrior with high dps? ) or mp to healers? Or u planning to wait till alex savage has echo and u are ilvl 220 from lol hunts? Also keep in mind bards can handle mechanics with less impact to their dps.t7,8,12 all say hi.

[Lemuria]

And who do u think will give tp to melee when they zero out

Ninjas! Goad ftw!

mp to healers?

Ballad is great, but all good healers know not to expect or rely on it for the simple fact that there's no guarantee there will even be a bard in the party. This goes double now that we have multiple ways to recover MP.

[Miitan]

Whether they are classified in DF as "support" or not is irrelevant. It's semantics. At the end of the day it's a class that does less damage do to the support that it brings to the group. This is factually evident. Square thinks that group tp/mp regen abilities have enough use to create a general demand for the job even though their damage is lower. They are correct. Otherwise no one would bring them at all.

Bards already lose 15% of their dps from singing, why should they lose 25% more just for being a Bard?

[Lewtskie]

Ninjas! Goad ftw!Ballad is great, but all good healers know not to expect or rely on it for the simple fact that there's no guarantee there will even be a bard in the party. This goes double now that we have multiple ways to recover MP.

Funny enough, the perfect way to put it is Bard's are insurance. You fuck up and they can help bail you out, but you gotta pay to keep that insurance going. In this case, it's at the cost of less overall DMG through-out the fight. We can help a little with Requiem come DPS checks, but we have to keep in mind come shit-storms and someone kicks the bucket or Healer's get fucking tunnel vision on covering even that magic pixel on that one tank and we haven't the MP for a Ballad we've fucked over our insurer, lol.

[Welsper59]

While I do understand the necessity to keep BRD away from top of the potential DPS charts, I don't agree with the outlook of "support" DPS for this game. Why have anything "support" related to be used as a handicap when such a role does not exist? Yoshi-P has literally stated there is no such thing. If it's simply the fact that BRD does damage while having potentially very useful utility, then BRD in FFXI was also "support DPS" thanks to the miniscule dmg dealt through things like Foe Requiem (which was DoT in that game). I'm quite certain no one would agree with that sentiment, yet that's a very similar outlook to it. If BRD are officially looked at as DPS, there is no reason they should be performing so drastically bad in comparison to other DPS, to the same extent that outside roles like tanks can often outdamage them lol (along with outdoing MCH).

Then you have to also consider the "necessity" aspect. The devs add means to classes/jobs to be self-sustainable without the need for a BRD for almost all content. TP regen abilities, MP Refresh, stat buffs, etc are all abilities that jobs already have, some of which affect the party as well. In other words, they're being a "support" role just as much as BRD is (though still not as blatant). The distinguishing gap between what made the BRD a "support DPS" is narrowing the more that time goes on, yet while it does not negatively affect those other jobs, it continues to be an excuse to keep BRD down. It's like the name "Bard" is enough reason to say it should not be able to do a role, and should instead fulfill a role that has been stressed officially to not exist. BRD is essentially hitting an identity crisis.

[Zyrusticae]

Whether they are classified in DF as "support" or not is irrelevant. It's semantics. At the end of the day it's a class that does less damage do to the support that it brings to the group. This is factually evident. Square thinks that group tp/mp regen abilities have enough use to create a general demand for the job even though their damage is lower. They are correct. Otherwise no one would bring them at all.

You missed the point.

4-man content is tuned for two DPS jobs. If the 'support DPS' (note the DPS part, very important) is tuned to be very weak because of that 'support' part, then you are absolutely screwed whenever you get two 'support' jobs instead of two 'dps' jobs. And ain't no one want to deal with THAT junk.

You might ask, 'but T'rahnu, 4-man content is a joke! Why should anyone care about this?', and the answer is very simple: because it kills morale. Taking forever to clear otherwise easy 4-man content just because the two 'support' jobs can't keep up the damage affects players' willingness to run that content, players' willingness to play those jobs, and players' overall enjoyment of the game.

Even EX primals will see those jobs excluded because they're completely unnecessary. I've already seen quite a few melee-only EX parties because nothing else really comes close. When you have that large of a performance disparity, the community responds, and often in very toxic ways. We need to nip that in the bud before it flowers into something far, far worse.